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Polygamy
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#1 06-02-2004, 12:24 AM
Amun-Ra
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Polygamy

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I’ve studied this topic for several years, investigating it as a possibility of giving fathers to the many children in the United States without fathers. It may seem an odd subject, but not as odd as children growing up without father figures in their lives. This is not as simple as it seems. Give it some thought. I am very interested in your replies. The Annabaptist tried this and were slaughtered for their efforts. The early church even granted dipensation after wrs for a man to have more than one wife in order to replace the male children.

Polygamy Treatise

Although overt polygamy is rare in the United States, it is common around the world. Of 1170 societies recorded in Murdock’s Ethnographic Atlas, polygyny (some men having more than one wife) is prevalent in 850. Even though simultaneous marriages to multiple partners are not officially recognized, divorce and remarriage leads to a common pattern known as “serial monogamy”, in which males remarry more frequently than females and are more likely than females to have children by more than one spouse.

Although the number of males and females are approximately equal at birth, in many societies, including the United States, these ratios are not equal at the time they join the marriage pool. In some societies many males die off by disease, murder and warfare. In many societies large proportions of males leave smaller towns to move into larger cities leaving behind a substantial excess of women.

The reality is that monogamy is not the norm among human society. In the United States alone (a monogamous country) 60% of men and 40% of women have extramarital affairs.

It is unreasonable to assume that all of these affairs are because of the failures and shortcomings of individual husbands and wives.

We give lip service to monogamy but in actuality society plays a significant role in the undermining of monogamous relationships, but that is not to excuse individuals and their roles. Monogamy is something most people say the believe in and want for themselves. Survey after survey has shown that on this question a high percentage of people think that monogamy is important to marriage and that having affairs are wrong. Still, a belief in monogamy doesn’t prevent many people from having extramarital affairs.

What is wrong? This means challenging many of our most cherished beliefs about monogamy and affairs. It means questioning old assumptions and maybe even giving some of them up to the truth. Out attitudes about monogamy and affairs are so ingrained that it will be difficult if not impossible to consider anything that deviates from those beliefs.

A new understanding of affairs involves more than just changing our thinking about the causes of affairs. It also includes changing our thinking about how to handle the issues of blame, secrecy, self-esteem, getting help, and whether to stay in the marriage.

Polygamy in the Bible

Ultimately, in debate or consideration in this country will be linked to social custom and most prominently to the Judeo-Christian ethic that this country was built around. What does the Bible say about polygamy. Actually, it says little at least as far as laws are concerned. In fact, the Bible is filled with examples of polygamy and there is nothing said about it.

Examples

The first polygamist mentioned is Lamech in Genesis 4:19. Although he ended up killing someone for wounding him his bigamy is not mentioned. Abraham, the first Hebrew, and ancestor of all of Israel, had two wives, Sarah and her servant Hagar, Genesis 16:3. Esau, Abraham’s grandson had three wives – Judith, Bashemath and Mahalath, Genesis 26:34, 28:9.
Jacob, the father of the twelve tribes of Israel had Rachel and Leah, who were sisters and their servants Bilhah and Zilpah, Genesis 29, 30. Without these four wives there would be no Israel. Gideon whose name is now associated with the Bibles that are prominently distributed through hotel chains today, had 70 sons, “for he had many wives” – Judges 8:30.
King David, one of God’s favorites, had many wives—Michal (Samuel 18:27), Ahinoam, Abigail, Maacah, Haggith, and Eglah (2Samuel3) Of course there was Bathsheba in 2Samuel 11:27. David was condemned for this wife because he had committed adultery with Bathsheba. Solomon had three hundred wives and seven hundred concubines, Kings 11:3.

You get the idea. There are more cases like this in the Bible and there are even indications of the laws governing such liaisons. The Old Testament had rules to regulate and limit its application in certain circumstances. The kings of Israel weren’t supposed to “multiply wives” to themselves, Deuteronomy 17:17. You weren’t supposed to take a woman’s sister to be her “rival wife” while she was still living, Leviticus 18:18. And, you weren’t to marry both a woman and her mother, Leviticus, 20:14. Bigamy was recognized and regulated by the Law of Moses. Just like a normal marriage, bigamy had its fair share of problems, and the law intervenes in Deuteronomy 21:15-17 to make sure that children get what they’re entitled to.

Common Reaction from Christians

Many Christians claim to follow the Bible, but when they read about polygamy they have a feeling that it’s wrong. They often think that somewhere in the Bible it is banned and perhaps even recall sermons when Christian leaders have either directly condemned it or at least suggested that it was sinful if not come right out and say it directly. Often this is because we allow other people to do or Christianity for us. It should be a little disconcerting for avid Bible readers reconciling the polygamy, that was openly practiced by many of the Biblical patriarchs, with the popular teaching of Christianity today that marriage means monogamy. There are two many example to the contrary for this not to be obvious and a potential issue.

The Marriage Institution

Marriage hasn’t always been the norm at least as we know it. It has progressed steadily from the loose and promiscuous matings of the herd through many adaptation which culminated in combining pairs, the union of one man and one woman as the highest social order.

The main driving forces behind this establishment of what is commonly thought to be the highest social order has been the need to regulate property and religion. However, the real reason that safeguards marriages into infinity is the simple biological fact that men and women positively will not live each, whether they are savages or cultured.
Simply said it is sex that drives this need to be together. It is the eventual civilizer of the savage because it leads man to think and thinking eventually leading to loving. Still, it is well to recognize that marriage is an artificial mechanism created by society to regulate and control sexual relationships and the descent, inheritance, succession and social order which was the original function.

The Family

The family is a stabilizer of the marriage institution along with the property laws. Pride, vanity, chivalry, duty and religious convictions are other potent factors in the marriage institution.

Sacrament

While marriages may be stabilizing influences and organizers for the distribution of property and lines of accession they are hardly made in heaven. Marriage is a distinctly human institution. It was brought about by humans and not by the church. It is true that religion greatly influences it but marriage as we know today is the workings of social custom and mores.
Primitive marriages were primarily industrial; and even marriages of today it is often social or business affairs that drive them. Various cultures have dowries and marriages of convenience. They are not based upon love but upon the need to keep the social order.

The idea of romantic love came later. It was this combined with the idealization of marriage and romantic love that eventually led to the disappointment and heartbreak experienced by many in today’s cultures.

The Idealization of Marriage

Marriage which culminates in the home is indeed man’s most exalted institution, but essentially it is human. It should have never been called a sacrament. The Sethite priests made marriage a religious ritual but for thousands of years after Eden mating continued as a purely social and civil institution.

This linking of human associations to divine association has been unfortunate. It has only been recognized as a sacrament in several of the major religions today but it persists as a holy ritual. The union of husband and wife is a material function of mortals. Spiritual progress may accrue upon sincere human efforts of husband and wife to progress, but this does not mean that marriage is necessarily sacred. Spiritual progress depends upon sincere application of righteousness in other human endeavors.

It is unfortunate that certain religious groups have assumed that marriage is a divine action. Such beliefs lead directly to the insolubility of the marital state regardless of the circumstances or wishes of the contracting parties. Of course this falls back to “what God has joined together, let no man put asunder.” This is basically saying that no matter what the circumstances a couple will remain thus joined until such a time as the divine will decree their separation. But regarding marriage, which is truly a human institution, who shall presume to sit in judgment to say which marriages are unions that might be approved by the universal supervisors in contrast with those that are purely human n nature. (Married at the Justice of the Peace)

Still we are in a family crisis as marriages fail fifty percent of the time in this country. The numbers have remained steady for more than a decade and show no signs of changing. Why? There are a variety of reasons. Easy divorce. People are less inclined to put up with anything that is less than ideal. They often come to the realization too late that marriages take work. The new independence of women. Welfare. Crime and incarceration. The list goes on and on. But, one of the biggest problems with today’s marriages in this country is the failure to set realistic expectations.

As long as we fail to properly educate children and youths in a realistic fashion about marriage and divorce things will not change. As long as the existing social order blatantly dismisses discussing sexuality, marriage and responsibility there will continue to be problems. And, as long as immature and unwise youthful romanticism and idealism is unchecked, divorce will remain prevalent.

The Numbers

For every 100 single women of marriageable age in the United States, there are fewer than 70 single men. As people get older this number changes and the statistics get worse. By the age of 45, for every 100 available men there are over 200 single women.

What happens? Well these excess women don’t go without a fight. Natural instincts propel humans as other animals to mate and reproduce. Single women will respond to biological needs and they will continue to attempt to secure a man of their own.

Divorce

Under our current social system, divorce is the only recognized solution of providing husbands and fathers for the surplus women. We have not only the highest divorce rate in history, but we have the highest rate of illegitimacy in our history and the highest rate of children living in single parent homes.

Making Divorce Tougher

In a misguided attempt to preserve the family some people and bumbling politicians and religious rhetoricians are suggesting that we make divorces more difficult to get. It will not work. Never has worked. And has no chance. All it ends up doing is leading to more creative ways to leave a bad marriage the simplest being just walking away. No one will sleep on a bed of nails regularly when other obvious solutions are available such as simple getting up and changing beds. We cannot legislate morality. We have tried. And, we have failed.

Supply and Demand

Whenever you have a demand that exceeds supply an inflated value is attached to the item in short supply which in this case would be men. Unattached women will compete with each other to their own detriment, for a chance at the marriage lottery. This self-defeating competition had led to more and earlier promiscuous sex. The woman carried the competition into the bedroom believing she can capture the prize, not knowing that she may be actually making the prize harder to obtain and making it harder for her sisters to obtain also. Men tend to take what they can get and marry what they can’t have.

Problems

Women sometimes live with men to solve this problem but is no guarantee. It main benefits are for the man. He has a live-in helper without the responsibility. Self-image and disease are also issues for these single women. Staying attractive in the mating race is expensive, hard work and often hazardous to your health. Women often live in fear of gain pounds, of looking anything but their best and staying physically fit.

Single Parent Homes

There are too many single parent homes — 12 million of them! There are too many homes where the father is absent — 10 million! There are too many children growing up without a father (more than 50%) US News and World Report magazine reports that one-third of the children born now are illegitimate. And, half of those children live in poverty.

Recently Divorced Women

Recently divorced women are especially susceptible to a predatory single man. Sooner or later she will be left behind is she presses for a commitment. He will move on to easier conquests.

All the Good Men are Taken

This familiar line has a certain amount of truth to it. The men most women would find attractive and marriageable “are” all ready taken. There are a variety of ways to improve the quality of men available for women to marry. However, it would do nothing to increase the marriage pool for single women. Plural marriage could improve women’s chances. Plural marriages would men that a woman would not have to for any man rather than none at all. The man who is kind, considerate and caring, gentle and loving is the man who will attract women to his household. Women will want to be with him. Plural marriages mean that if a woman could share a husband, her chances are better of getting a good one.

Plural Marriage

This is not for everyone. No more than any religion or belief is for everyone. Plural marriage is for the woman of whatever age who doesn’t want to live alone, who want to be part of a family and who wants a man in her life.

Monogamy

Society has an interest in promoting monogamy. Prevention of sexually transmitted diseases is one. Stable monogamous relationships in saving, acquisition of property and personal economic growth. Stable-long term relationships also contribute to health and longevity.

Polygamy

Firstly, this system isn’t an excuse for sexually promiscuous relationships. It is a system of developing family, not just the bringing together of a man and woman.

Martin Luther and Malechethon both were approached by the German Prince who wished to have a second wife, the first wife was in agreement as were both of the parents. Both Luther and his associates agreed that polygamy was not against the Christian religion and that plural marriage was better than adultery, which was a common practice of the nobility of the day (has anything changed), and so the approved and the prince was married to the second wife. When the secret marriage was discovered Luther proposed a good strong lie!

An entire German community in Muenster called the Annabaptist was burned to the ground occupied by the Annabaptist who were practicing polygamy as a community, for no other reason than they were practicing polygamy. What is surprising is after the 30 years war, Germany’s male population was so devastated a church council condoned and allowed multiple wives. For ten years a man could take more than one wife. Even in the mid 1800’s in Guatemala, after the civil war, the male population had so dwindled a papal dispensation allowed the practice of polygamy among Catholic men.
Is polygamy a dead issue. In January of 1996 The New York Times ran an article about more than 100,000 polygamists living in Paris alone.

In Asia, mistresses have largely replaced concubines because men found it better for themselves. Mistresses have fewer rights than formally recognized concubines. Why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free? A typical male response to such a situation. It costs less to keep a mistress because they are not legally or openly recognized as in the more formal concubine tradition.

The Bible recognized them as wives before a solemn covenant with God and protected their rights. Concubines were protected under Mosaic Law, Exodus 21:7-11; Deuteronomy 2:10-14, even though they were distinguished from wives, Judges 8:31, and were more easily divorced, Genesis 21:10-14. Concubinage was legally sanctioned and socially accepted in ancient cultures although they were not entitled to the same rights as a wife.

Monogamy

American divorce courts show that monogamy does very well at promoting and producing sinful behavior and carnal problems between mates and the parents in law. The problem is still sin and the flesh, not monogamy of polygamy.

Two-thirds of the world’s population live in societies where concubines and mistresses are officially sanctioned and the other third live in societies where mistresses and common law wives are officially sanctioned. The plight of most wives and mistresses and concubines are worse now than when polygamy were legal because then at least they had some security and commitment from their mates even if they took additional wives, while they are now dumped when a man takes a new wife or mistress.

In 1995 in Somalia, Rawanda or Burundi, Africa almost 50% of the women are widows and almost 50% of the marriageable men in their nation have been killed or missing for months. The women have a choice to live as single widows risking hardship in war ravaged countries with no protection against sexual attack by roving homeless males. Or, they can become the wives or concubines of one of the few surviving stable and working males coming under the umbrella of a family and having the protection of not living alone.

Black inner city ghettos are facing the same critical shortage of marriageable males. In 1990 it was found that 33% of all black males aged 20-29 were either incarcerated, on parole or on probation. Approximately 1 out of every 25 black males is in prison. There are more females available for marriage than there are black males.

The vast majority of black males in prison range in age from 20-40 with most in tin the 25-36 age group. Most of these men will return to prison within a short time after they are released. Recently it was shown on national television that 7% of all black men are in prison.

Obviously, this means that there is a startling shortage of marriageable black men during their most productive years due to imprisonment or death. Homicide is the number one killer of African American youth between the ages of 14-22. Only 30% of African American women have their spouses available in their homes. which is about half the Caucasian rate.

One out of every 1000 black people is dying of AIDs. Only murder takes a higher toll on young black men. The third highest rate is abortion. More babies are being aborted. The black population has increased very little since in the last 20 years.

This all means that a significant number of Black males are unavailable for marriage or parenting during their most productive years. According to the Census Bureau 39% of black women never marry and 46% of black men never marry. Black women are not sought by other races for wives. Even black men have shunned them.

This leaves a large number of black females of marriageable age with no suitable male available and help raise children. Young black females with affectionate and passionate needs do not have enough suitable males for monogamous marriages so that leaves the frustration, promiscuity, lesbianism or bisexuality. In America bigamy and polygamy are illegal.

Should such an option be made available? Why shouldn’t ethically moral and Biblically acceptable concubinage be a viable option for such a population? This is not the first time this idea has been approached.

There seems to be a genuine shortage of men who are filled with the desire to get married and provide stable homes for their families and wives. The number of black men seeking to marry has drooped drastically as the number of women available has increased.

There is a sever gender crisis in the black community. One of out every twenty black males may die before the age of twenty-one. For those 20-35 years of age, homicide is the leading cause of death. Besides, many young black males are unemployed, in jail, or on dope. As a result at age 40 , one in four black women have never married. as compared with one in ten white women.

The end result of these tragic circumstances is that an increasing number of black women are engaged in what is commonly called “man-sharing,” meaning that these women are involved in affairs with married men. Usually the wives are unaware that other women are sharing their husband. Of course, this is one of the biggest problems is the secrecy and hidden. “Women will always prefer a tenth share of a first-rate man to the exclusive possession of a third-rate one.”

An answer could be consensus polygamy where it was agreed upon by all parties and acceptable to the community. Of course the rules governing such liaisons would be tremendous but it could offer a temporary solution.

Who Gets Left Out

Men will suffer in the long run because the more capable and more desirable will be the beneficiaries of such an arrangement. Women of less than desirable traits will also, Suffer. What chance will a woman will multiple children have of join one of these families. What about men who are unemployed or under employed? What chance will they have?

There are many reforms needed throughout the country to make this marriage lottery and family stability work out. Polygamy is not the answer but neither is monogamy in its present state.

In a country that tolerates prostitution and mistresses, this is surely a kinder and more ethical as well as moral answer to this total break down of society’s rules. Currently, it is Joanne. For both men and women.
There will also be other groups who could benefit such as the elderly and others.

Even evangelist Billy Graham has recognized some of the benefit and the moral hypocrisy of American culture. “Christianity cannot compromise on the question of polygamy. If present day Christianity cannot do so, it is to its own detriment. Islam has permitted polygamy as a solution to social ills and has allowed a certain degree of latitude to human nature but only within the strictly defined framework of the law. Christian countries make a great show of monogamy, but they actually practice polygamy. No one is unaware of the part the mistresses play in Western society. In this respect Islam is a fundamentally honest religion, and permits a Muslim to marry a second wife if he must, but strictly forbids all clandestine amatory associations in order to safeguard the moral probity of the community.”

In Islam, the regulations concerning polygamy limit the number of wives a man can have while making him responsible for all the women involved. “Marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with them, then only one or one that your right hands possess. That will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.” (Qur’an 4:3)

It is interesting to note that many countries, Muslim and non Muslim, have outlawed polygamy. Taking a second wife even whit the permission of the first wife is a violation of the law. However, cheating on the wife without her knowledge or consent is perfectly legitimate as far as the law is concerned

Martin Madan, who wrote a three volume work called Thelyphthora in 1780 and it contains practically every argument that can be made in favor of Old Testament polygamy. Madan states “The only real difference and substantial difference between the ancient Jews and the Christians is this: The former took a plurality of women whom they maintained, protected and provided for agreeable to God’s word. The latter take a plurality of women and turn them to ruin and destruction not only against God’s word but against every principle of justice and humanity.

Or, in other words if the Jew took as many as he could maintain, the Christian ruins as many as he can debauch. We may boast of our marriage and condemn polygamy, but there is not a nation under heaven where polygamy is more openly practiced than in this Christian country, for, though a man may marry but one at a time, he may have as great a variety as he pleases without ever marrying all . . .To punish a poor deserted creature for being a prostitute, when it is put out of her power to force her seducer to provide for her as the divine law enjoins, is equally cruel and foolish, not very unlike the man who threw his child into a ditch and then beat him for being dirty.”

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#2 06-02-2004, 06:25 AM
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Well stated & intelligiently argued Amun-Ra! In any society where the amount of available women exceeds the number of available men….polygamy is a logical choice. A lifetime of solitude, becoming a single parent, or homosexuality are not heathly alternatives. Polygamy does not go against the mores of Christianity (as you stated), it goes against the mores of Western civilization. This culture has not been to the benefit of black people. Although it may not be for everyone, we should reconsider the benefit of polygamous relationships, they can help to re-establish the black family.

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#3 06-03-2004, 09:11 PM
Amun-Ra
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Tuff Subject

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This is one of those subjects that requires checking your emotions at the door or there will never be a discussion. However, that said, the case for polygamy is strong even though I doubt it would bear much weight once religion weighs in even though there is nothing in most religions that forbid it.

Ra

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#4 06-03-2004, 10:55 PM
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There are too many misperceptions about polygamy. Beside the opinion that it goes against Christianity…..it is also believed that polygamy is another form of adultery/cheating. Indeed a black female journalist (Michelle Mitchell-Chicago SunTimes) wrote an article about black men in Chicago engaging in polygamous relationship, and how these relationships hurt black women. However, what the author described was cheating…..not polygamy. These were not voluntary relationship, but a man convincing a woman he was committed to her….then dating other women behind her back. I wrote a rebuttal to the author, informing her what polygamy is (she never responded). This article though served to show that despite the widespread opposition to polygamy in the US & Western Society in general……not many people know what it actually is.

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#5 06-04-2004, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amun-Ra
This is one of those subjects that requires checking your emotions at the door or there will never be a discussion. However, that said, the case for polygamy is strong even though I doubt it would bear much weight once religion weighs in even though there is nothing in most religions that forbid it.

Ra

Since coming to the forums, this is the topic that has had the greatest impact on me. These types of discussions have caused me to pause and take note of my beliefs, emotions, morals, values and opinions. When I arrived here, my views were primarily limited to and corralled within modern day western thought. I never considered the historical perspective on the subject nor gave much thought to the pros and cons it might have for our people today. My early approach was merely from an emotional and superficial standpoint until I started to read the writings of the more enlightened among us here and it’s then that I began to shift gradually away from individualistic thinking and more toward the values of community living.

My view now is that polygamy has nothing to do with infidelity or sexual promiscuity. It’s primary benefit is not about the number of sexual partners available to a man. I don’t think that a polygamous relationship robs or cheats any woman from a relationship with a man. Everyone isn’t suited for this type of bond. The one’s that are should be allowed to live this type of life if they want to. As much sense as a relationship like this might make, some people still wouldn’t be able to think of it any other way than wrong because of how they’ve been socialized. But what law would people be breaking if they chose this lifestyle as opposed to a monogamous one? None that I can see.

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#6 06-05-2004, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NNQueen
Since coming to the forums, this is the topic that has had the greatest impact on me. These types of discussions have caused me to pause and take note of my beliefs, emotions, morals, values and opinions. When I arrived here, my views were primarily limited to and corralled within modern day western thought. I never considered the historical perspective on the subject nor gave much thought to the pros and cons it might have for our people today. My early approach was merely from an emotional and superficial standpoint until I started to read the writings of the more enlightened among us here and it’s then that I began to shift gradually away from individualistic thinking and more toward the values of community living.

This is yet another example of the knowledge & wisdom you possess NNQueen. I think there is going to come a time in the not so distant future where everyone is going to re-evaluate their opinions on polygamy. Mormons in Utah are already in the process of changing the law on this (in response to gay marriage). The debates & exchanges that come from this should be interesting.

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#7 06-07-2004, 10:22 AM
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It Ain’t Easy

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Anybody who thinks this is an easy thing for man hasn’t looked at the situation. In the Bible, Koran and many other texts there are laws for dealing with more than one wife and all the laws favor the wives in seeing that each is treated fairly and not neglected. Most men would run from this situation because it requires serious commitment, an ability to provide that is beyond normal, and truthfulness.

Panafrica and NNQueen you both nail it. This is not a job for a weak man. It is a job for a strong man who understands commitment. The sexual favors in the polygamous relationship are inflamed by western thinking. Wild orgies and rollicking sex don’t fit here. Each women is to be treated with respect and has her own time with the husband during witch he must not give her any less attention than any of the other wives. He cannot play favorites.

What happens when he somehow manages to anger three woman at once? Where does he go. He does he turn to for comfort? Just an idea, but sex is a small part of the polygamous relationship. It is more about commitment, responsibility and providing equally.

In the black community such an idea is not without merit, but it would require dropping some westernized thinking. Polygamy as PanAfrica rightly points out, is not having several women on the side. It is about being married to several women and all that implies, such as fidelity, care, love and protection but for more than one women and equally.

Western thinking make men and women chattel like horses and cows. We belong to each other and there is that sense of ownership, but in a polygamous relationship it is sharing and its is haring with love which may be the hardest thing anyone could ever do.

This tgype of relationship is not for weak-kneed men, or cheaters. This requires real men with a commitment to family and providing. That right there would be enough to make many men and women run.

Ra

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#8 06-20-2004, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Amun-Ra

Anybody who thinks this is an easy thing for man hasn’t looked at the situation. In the Bible, Koran and many other texts there are laws for dealing with more than one wife and all the laws favor the wives in seeing that each is treated fairly and not neglected. Most men would run from this situation because it requires serious commitment, an ability to provide that is beyond normal, and truthfulness.

Panafrica and NNQueen you both nail it. This is not a job for a weak man. It is a job for a strong man who understands commitment. The sexual favors in the polygamous relationship are inflamed by western thinking. Wild orgies and rollicking sex don’t fit here. Each women is to be treated with respect and has her own time with the husband during witch he must not give her any less attention than any of the other wives. He cannot play favorites.

What happens when he somehow manages to anger three woman at once? Where does he go. He does he turn to for comfort? Just an idea, but sex is a small part of the polygamous relationship. It is more about commitment, responsibility and providing equally.

In the black community such an idea is not without merit, but it would require dropping some westernized thinking. Polygamy as PanAfrica rightly points out, is not having several women on the side. It is about being married to several women and all that implies, such as fidelity, care, love and protection but for more than one women and equally.

Western thinking make men and women chattel like horses and cows. We belong to each other and there is that sense of ownership, but in a polygamous relationship it is sharing and its is haring with love which may be the hardest thing anyone could ever do.

This tgype of relationship is not for weak-kneed men, or cheaters. This requires real men with a commitment to family and providing. That right there would be enough to make many men and women run.

Ra

This all looks good on paper but without a major radical social change your last sentence holds a significant amount of truth.

One big assumption we’ve made here is that polygamy is about one man having more than one wife. In a non western sociery perhaps but with our history of egalitgarianism and woman’s liberation it is highly unlikely that our society would accept men having more than one wife unless women are also allowed to have more than one husband. How many men do you think would be open to such an idea? Given our tendency to take everything to its extreme the scenaario will also arise of a man’s two wives discovering that they love each other and wanting to get married. Americans are that crazy.

Widespread acceptance of polygamy will require a total restructuring of our economic system which would make it possible for a man to provide for all these women and there college bound children equally. Even if all the women work there must still be a strict distribution of the finances so that no one feels she or he is being called to subsidize the lifestyles of all or some of the others. This is not to say that the problems of trying to get along with all those people are insurmountable but they are much more complicated than two people learning to cohabitate which is already difficult.

I would suggest that we learn to deal better with the problems we have now rather than look to something far more complex as if it were a solution. It’s like turning to calculus because algebra is too hard.

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That which does not kill me makes me stronger, but that which kills me does not destroy my strength. I take it with me as I go forth by day.

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#9 06-20-2004, 09:38 PM
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This might be a good thread to post in the relationships forum to get more feedback.

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Ebony Minds Building unity and knowledge in the panAfrican diaspora

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That which does not kill me makes me stronger, but that which kills me does not destroy my strength. I take it with me as I go forth by day.

Peace is not the absence of trouble but the presence of God.

Count the stars not the scars

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#10 06-21-2004, 10:46 PM
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While it may be true that the Bible makes precepts regarding polygamy it does the same for divorce. Yet, as Jesus said, from the beginning it was not so. The Bible does not say for this cause shall a man leave his mother and father and cleave to his wives. But to his wife and they TWO shall become one. Three people cannot become one. What God has set forth cannot be set aside by social expediencies. But like everything else in life we rationalize (tell ourselves rationale lies) to make morality and common sense fit our desires. In truth intimacy cannot develop in a crowd.

There are no social problems in marriage or family that can be resolved by polygamy. We like to think that if we change the social structure the people will also change. But if you have the same corrupt selfish backbiting neurotic people as you had in the old structure the new structure will have all the same problems plus some of its own. Every social structure looks good on paper. It’s only when you add the human factor that things go awry. Let’s deal with the human factor–let brothahs and sisters learn to love each other because complicating an already complex relationship is not going to resolve anything

Pamoja

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Ebony Minds Building unity and knowledge in the panAfrican diaspora

Ebony Botunde A place to share and receive healing for spiritual wounds
That which does not kill me makes me stronger, but that which kills me does not destroy my strength. I take it with me as I go forth by day.

Peace is not the absence of trouble but the presence of God.

Count the stars not the scars

If ya wanna walk on water ya gotta get out of da boat

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06-22-2004, 01:54 PM
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amun-ra
as i read your thread i felt i had stepped back into the late sixties, early seventies, when such ideas were thought,talked about and actually done.
I think if pologamy can/does work it is a good thing for all parties..however, i wonder why you have not responded to rivers thoughts
Many of the problems of those relationships (none of which exist today and i knew of at least 40) are the very things river states in her reply.
l- the economic resources did not fully afford the man taking care of two or even 3 households
2- the support systems in other countries do not exist in the usa
3- the slave rooted african-american, as much as he is a descendent of africa,is very much an american and a true amalgamation of its culture and the discovery of it’s own identity
Like River…first we must truly love each other as human beings before we move to the complexity and the real maturity of such a relationship.
And as much as we talk about it the harsh reality of who we are and how we live and think today makes me feel that it would take some psychological help(which I think most of us need anyway)and a real sense of self and political consciousness to make it work in this society.
but…as a concept and if the right kinds of personalities (to me that means mature(usually that means experiencedand sometimes older aged) adults . I think it is one of the ways for human beings to come together and not be and or die alone..

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#12 06-22-2004, 02:58 PM
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Hey Deepy,

Yes that is what it’s all about–reality and maturity. The systems and structures that we have now started out as ideals. Dreams in someone’s mind that they could build a utopis by changing the structures. Now that things didn’t pan out the way they looked on paper we want to cover the harsh realities with new ideals for new structures. Until we are mature enough to face the harsh realities and deal with them we will always be starting over like this like someone who marries and divorces over and over without ever recognizing the role they play in their own life.

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Ebony Minds Building unity and knowledge in the panAfrican diaspora

Ebony Botunde A place to share and receive healing for spiritual wounds
That which does not kill me makes me stronger, but that which kills me does not destroy my strength. I take it with me as I go forth by day.

Peace is not the absence of trouble but the presence of God.

Count the stars not the scars

If ya wanna walk on water ya gotta get out of da boat

If the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence it’s because the people on the other side are taking care of it

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#13 06-23-2004, 02:54 PM
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i believe that consenting adults should be allowed to form any type of relationship they want under the law.

I’ve been in a commune and in polygamous relationships.

i found that there was constant pressure on the women from family and Friends. there was no rest until the women went into a conventional relationship.

so my problem is not with the relationship itself but that society will not leave you alone.

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#14 06-23-2004, 04:54 PM
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That’s what the law is for because so many people think that just because they are adults they can do whatever they like without consideration of the social consequences. It’s like if all the cells in your body just decided to do whatever they like. They do this sometimes and the resilt is disease and dysfunction.

Yes, we are individuals but that does not mean our actions have no impact on others beyond them minding their business. The conseequences do affect others so why should we expect people to just be quiet and leve us alone? No one lives in a vaccuum on another planet by themselves where nothing they do has any consequences that could affect other people. Certainly the consequences outlined above affect more than just the people involved.

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Ebony Minds Building unity and knowledge in the panAfrican diaspora

Ebony Botunde A place to share and receive healing for spiritual wounds
That which does not kill me makes me stronger, but that which kills me does not destroy my strength. I take it with me as I go forth by day.

Peace is not the absence of trouble but the presence of God.

Count the stars not the scars

If ya wanna walk on water ya gotta get out of da boat

If the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence it’s because the people on the other side are taking care of it

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#15 06-23-2004, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by river
That’s what the law is for because so many people think that just because they are adults they can do whatever they like without consideration of the social consequences. It’s like if all the cells in your body just decided to do whatever they like. They do this sometimes and the result is disease and dysfunction.

Yes, we are individuals but that does not mean our actions have no impact on others beyond them minding their business. The consequences do affect others so why should we expect people to just be quiet and leave us alone? No one lives in a vacuum on another planet by themselves where nothing they do has any consequences that could affect other people. Certainly the consequences outlined above affect more than just the people involved.

since what one does affects other people, the other people have the right to tell one what to do?
your writing this post affects me, do i have the right to tell you what to write?

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#16 06-23-2004, 08:40 PM
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Definitely

——————————————————————————–

In this country for any of this too take place would require so much restructuring and reeducation that none of us would be here to see it. Of course, another answer to the problem is to be committed to the women and men we have, slow the number of babies born without the benefit of a second parent or start looking elsewhere for men and women.

Amun-Ra

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#17 06-23-2004, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesfrmphilly
since what one does affects other people, the other people have the right to tell one what to do?
your writing this post affects me, do i have the right to tell you what to write?

You have the right to respond to what I write and express your disagreement. If you say you do not have that right I will ask you why you did something you don’t think you have the right to do. No one has the right to go through life without criticism. I don’t claim such a right.

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Ebony Minds Building unity and knowledge in the panAfrican diaspora

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That which does not kill me makes me stronger, but that which kills me does not destroy my strength. I take it with me as I go forth by day.

Peace is not the absence of trouble but the presence of God.

Count the stars not the scars

If ya wanna walk on water ya gotta get out of da boat

If the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence it’s because the people on the other side are taking care of it

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#18 06-23-2004, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amun-Ra
In this country for any of this too take place would require so much restructuring and reeducation that none of us would be here to see it. Of course, another answer to the problem is to be committed to the women and men we have, slow the number of babies born without the benefit of a second parent or start looking elsewhere for men and women.

Amun-Ra

Hey Ra,
Yes you see that this would not work in the context of today’s america. And you see the solutions to the problems we have. I agree with you that the ideal of polygamy is one that could only be brought to manifestation by strong men. My question is if we had a significant number of strong men would we have the problems that we have today? How can we strengthen the men?

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Africation Open a door in your mind. See what your brothas and sistas are doing in the worldwide African diaspora. Learn about the cultural traditions of Black folks around the world.

Ebony Minds Building unity and knowledge in the panAfrican diaspora

Ebony Botunde A place to share and receive healing for spiritual wounds
That which does not kill me makes me stronger, but that which kills me does not destroy my strength. I take it with me as I go forth by day.

Peace is not the absence of trouble but the presence of God.

Count the stars not the scars

If ya wanna walk on water ya gotta get out of da boat

If the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence it’s because the people on the other side are taking care of it

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#19 06-26-2004, 02:29 PM
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One of the statements Imamu Baraka said was”the most revolutionary thing a man could do was to go and take care of his children” (i am paraphrasing a little i am sure)
and, yes, i understand the politics of today..a lot of men who could are in prisons, etc. the question arises if one doesn’t take care of his children how can he take care his households?
JamesMcPhilly you said “the women was under constant pressure from family and friends until she went into a conventional partnering” But she went into the relationship, defying family and friends..so is it possible that their was more to her leaving said relationship ?
as stated, (and in agreement with Amun’’s last statement and River) we really would need reeducation, etc…to make it work for the long term…not one or two or even 5 years..but the long term..

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#20 06-28-2004, 08:37 PM
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which one of you ladies want to be my 2nd wife?

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#21 06-28-2004, 09:37 PM
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2nd wife?

You are asking for it Pan my man. The Bible says a woman can reduce a man to a crust of bread. What can two women do?

1. PMS twice a month or two womanh going through it simultaneously in the same house. Either way ’tis no tea party

2. Wife one: Those are my stockings.
Wife two: No those are MY stockings.

3. Wife one: Umm excuse me. I don’t use my vaccuum cleaner to pick up food.
Wife two: This is not your vaccuum cleaner girlie.

4. Wife one: You took her out last time, Pan but now it’s my turn and you want to be like you don’t have any more money. I guess not! You spend it all on her!

Why do this to yourself?

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Ebony Minds Building unity and knowledge in the panAfrican diaspora

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That which does not kill me makes me stronger, but that which kills me does not destroy my strength. I take it with me as I go forth by day.

Peace is not the absence of trouble but the presence of God.

Count the stars not the scars

If ya wanna walk on water ya gotta get out of da boat

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#22 06-28-2004, 10:37 PM
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are you saying PanAfrica that wife number one is ready to share with a wife number two?

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#23 06-28-2004, 11:29 PM
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I see sisters River & Deepy that you can’t even joke about this topic (which is what I was doing). Ironically though, just this afternoon I was talking with a “sista”, whose sister & brother in law were considering polygamy. This is becoming a reality ladies in more American households (white, latino, and black), whether or not we want believe it. Polygamy has both its benefits, and downfalls…as does any other relationship. However at a time when relationships are rapidly being redefined (like Homosexual marriage)…polygamy will also be re-examined. I for one don’t think it is an obsolete instituion. I feel it makes more sense now (with such factors as an increased number of homosexuality, single parent households, infidelity in marriage, male imprisionment, and the increasing gap between available females to males), than it ever has in this country’s history.

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#24 06-28-2004, 11:34 PM
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Male Challenged

——————————————————————————–

You might say we are male challenged–there are many answers, but I like polygamy because it produces an argument and if you haven’t guessed it by now–I like to stir things up, but its all in a good cause. Thinking opens the mind, stimulates new thoughts and helps each of grow–I am tring to get smarter by reserving my judgement or reserving my right to change my mind or be persuaded–That’s why I like to challenege people to take a stand on something they have absolutely no use for and then make an argument for its existence because it forces one to think about another point of view, especially iof you have to defend a view you don’t find to your liking–Ra

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#25 06-28-2004, 11:47 PM
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brother panafrica
i had to sign back into respond to you…what are you talking about.? if you didn’t get the humor in my message I am sorry..cause I thought what i wrote was funny…now if using wife number 1 as the pivot took you to serious…then check yourself…cause i was making a joke
as stated…I have no negative judgement on polygamy…just the necessary requirements/ethics/etc…to make such unions work in america.
and if they are happening and they are working out and all parties are comfortable, all is well and good.
brother amun-ra
I haven’t guessed it…what is it.?

I am JOKING..JOKING…
YOU GET THIS ONE?

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#26 06-28-2004, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepy
brother panafrica i had to sign back into respond to you…what are you talking about.? if you didn’t get the humor in my message I am sorry..cause I thought what i wrote was funny?

If that was a joke, I sure did misunderstand it. But it that was your idea of a joke…a funny one at that……don’t quite your day job!

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#27 06-29-2004, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panafrica
I see sisters River & Deepy that you can’t even joke about this topic (which is what I was doing). Ironically though, just this afternoon I was talking with a “sista”, whose sister & brother in law were considering polygamy. This is becoming a reality ladies in more American households (white, latino, and black), whether or not we want believe it. Polygamy has both its benefits, and downfalls…as does any other relationship. However at a time when relationships are rapidly being redefined (like Homosexual marriage)…polygamy will also be re-examined. I for one don’t think it is an obsolete instituion. I feel it makes more sense now (with such factors as an increased number of homosexuality, single parent households, infidelity in marriage, male imprisionment, and the increasing gap between available females to males), than it ever has in this country’s history.

You mean you thought I was serious? It never occured to me that you would take my post as serious. This is because we are reading words without the benefit of voice. Of course it is only human to inject into those words whatever we are already feeling when we come to them. Pan, you know you my boy so go back and read my post and laugh dagnabbit.

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Ebony Minds Building unity and knowledge in the panAfrican diaspora

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That which does not kill me makes me stronger, but that which kills me does not destroy my strength. I take it with me as I go forth by day.

Peace is not the absence of trouble but the presence of God.

Count the stars not the scars

If ya wanna walk on water ya gotta get out of da boat

If the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence it’s because the people on the other side are taking care of it

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#28 06-29-2004, 12:54 AM
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I knew you were joking River…with Deepy it wasn’t so obvious.

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#29 06-29-2004, 01:00 AM
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Let me add this though sister River: Even though I knew you were joking, the situationd you described would be an issue between a man juggling two girlfriends. However I don’t think two women who were involved in a polygamous marriage would argue over such a minor issue.

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#30 06-29-2004, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panafrica
Let me add this though sister River: Even though I knew you were joking, the situationd you described would be an issue between a man juggling two girlfriends. However I don’t think two women who were involved in a polygamous marriage would argue over such a minor issue.

I don’t know, Pan. Two women in the same house would probably fall out over even smaller things because the things they are falling out over are not what the real issue is. In America we have this idea that a wife is supposed to be the woman of the house just like a husband is the man of his house. To ask a woman to share or abdicate this role is just like asking you to give up the kingship in your own home. You may be able to get a woman to give mental assent to the idea that sharing her crown is the intelligent and mature thing to do but something in the back of her mind will still rebel and these little petty issues will crop up as expressions of her disatisfaction. I have been in this situation trying to one big happy family with my sister and her husband and kids after living fifteen years on my own. I know I would have no problem submitting to my king cause that is the desire of my heartbut to share my role with another woman I cannot do it and I don’t know too many woman who can. Women get along better when they have their own territory and are not in each other’s hair. Being married to the same man is not going to make a difference

#31 06-30-2004, 12:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by river
Women get along better when they have their own territory and are not in each other’s hair. Being married to the same man is not going to make a difference.

All we have really established is that polygamy would not be the right lifestyle for you Sister River, and this is your right. This lifestyle certainly should not be forced on those who are unwilling, and unable to practice it. Although I subscribe to the notion of polygamy, I am in a monogamous marriage, and don’t see myself in any other type of relationship (I have not met another woman who even compares to my wife). Indeed, I can only afford to take care of myself, my wife, and my daughter. If I attempted to engage with another woman, any money I gave to her would be taking food out of my family’s mouths (which is a crime). This is why laws of polygamy require that a man be able to provide for all women & children equally. If a person is unable to do this, then they can not practice polygamy (whether they “believe” in it or not). In a true polygamous marriage two different women would have two different houses. Therefore being in each others hair would not be an issue. I will say this though…most people who object to polygamy are looking at the institution through the eyes of the “Western” world…which you should not do. Just because a practice is not within the guidelines of the West doesn’t mean that it is immoral.

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#32 06-30-2004, 09:19 AM
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There are still aspects of this issue that take it beyond my personal preference.

Because I am a Christian the pracaticality of a thing is not the litmus test for whether or not it should be done. As I pointed out hefore just because God allows people in the Bible to do certain things does not mean they are within His will. His will is that a man leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife and they TWO shall become one flesh. Three people cannot become one as a man runs from house to house. I realize that not everyone is a Christian and not everyone feels obligated to follow the Bible (even some Christians don’t so you know…). For many marriage is just a legal, practicall and financial contract that can be designed and redesigned anyway they want without any regard for how God designed it to be. I cannot speak for them. But I do speak to the people of God who might be led to think that polygamy is okay with Him.

Pan, if we are talking about having polygamy in the west then we must see it through the eyes of the west because it will not work for us the same way it works for the east. The biggest assumption proponents of polygamy make is that it will be about one man having more than one wife. It won’t work that way in the west. If you insist that it is okay for a man to have two wives western women will insist that it is okay for a woman to have two husbandsand thay will insist that this is even more practicle because a woman doesn’t have to worry about if she can take care of all her husbands instead the second husband will lighten the leoad for the first husband. That’s the way the western mind works.

I don’t think polygamy is immoral. If it were immoral King David would not have been called the apple of God’s eye. God clearly permits men to have more than one wife. But that is not His perfect will. Polygamy is not the way God planned things from the beginning. Reality is there is precious little in this world that is as God planned it from the beginning. So He permits some things like divorce and polygamy as responses to our realities.

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#33 06-30-2004, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by river
I don’t think polygamy is immoral. If it were immoral King David would not have been called the apple of God’s eye. God clearly permits men to have more than one wife. But that is not His perfect will. Polygamy is not the way God planned things from the beginning. Reality is there is precious little in this world that is as God planned it from the beginning. So He permits some things like divorce and polygamy as responses to our realities.

It is the reality that I deal with at all times.

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#34 06-30-2004, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amun-Ra
You might say we are male challenged–there are many answers, but I like polygamy because it produces an argument and if you haven’t guessed it by now–I like to stir things up, but its all in a good cause. Thinking opens the mind, stimulates new thoughts and helps each of grow–I am tring to get smarter by reserving my judgement or reserving my right to change my mind or be persuaded–That’s why I like to challenege people to take a stand on something they have absolutely no use for and then make an argument for its existence because it forces one to think about another point of view, especially iof you have to defend a view you don’t find to your liking–Ra

Your efforts to stimulate our thoughts are much appreciated, Ra. These are the kinds of activities my father enged me in when I was a child. As a result I think very deeply–questioning not only the answers but often questioning the questions. Of course we all come to any discussion or argument with a heuristic paradigm based on our the knowledge and experiences that we bring to the table. I appreciate a discussion that is not like “Here’s a nickel. Give me five pennies.” Like a pair of scissors it’s the opposition of the blades that pushes the material to the cutting edge os truth.

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That which does not kill me makes me stronger, but that which kills me does not destroy my strength. I take it with me as I go forth by day.

Peace is not the absence of trouble but the presence of God.

Count the stars not the scars

If ya wanna walk on water ya gotta get out of da boat

If the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence it’s because the people on the other side are taking care of it

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#35 06-30-2004, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panafrica
It is the reality that I deal with at all times.

Then I would like you to address some of the realities of polygamy in the west that I brought up, i.e., American women insisting that they should likewise be allowed to have more than one husband. Also how do three people become one?

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Ebony Minds Building unity and knowledge in the panAfrican diaspora

Ebony Botunde A place to share and receive healing for spiritual wounds
That which does not kill me makes me stronger, but that which kills me does not destroy my strength. I take it with me as I go forth by day.

Peace is not the absence of trouble but the presence of God.

Count the stars not the scars

If ya wanna walk on water ya gotta get out of da boat

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#36 06-30-2004, 04:30 PM
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——————————————————————————–

Quote:
Originally Posted by river
Then I would like you to address some of the realities of polygamy in the west that I brought up, i.e., American women insisting that they should likewise be allowed to have more than one husband. Also how do three people become one?

Multiple husbands is not polygamy, it is polandry (mispell). I’m sure you are aware of many women that already have more than one man River (The nice guy, the dangerous/exciting guy, the guy who buys me things, etc). However one of the conditions that makes polygamy necessary, and preferable is a greater amount of available women than available men. Women in America across all races outnumber men more than 2 to 1. Therefore it can’t be logically argued that polandry is necessary here. However there are some places (Alaska & parts of Asia) were the amount of available men out number available women. In this case, the multiple husbands would be acceptable.

Speakinig of reality. The reality of the American sex ratio amoung single people is: It is numerically impossible for every woman in America to find a husband, because women outnumber men. No amount of Bible quoting (particularly considering the Bible doesn’t speak against polygamy) or Western European reasoning is going to change that reality. For the roughly 50% of women in America, they are faced with the prospects of being a single parent…becoming a lesbian…or living a life of solitude. Ironically most American women who are against polygamy, base their objections on a belief it is anti-Christian. However two out of the three alternatives I listed (homosexuality & having children out of wedlock), are directly against the principles of the Bible. Yet millions of supposedly Christian women choose these paths instead of considering polygamy. I don’t see lesbianism, single parent-hood, or solitude as healthy choices…to me polygamy is a logical choice. When this reality sinks in…I think more women will believe so too.

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#37 06-30-2004, 07:36 PM
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Oh Pan, I feel like I just passed up a good thing. Five minutes ago a very nice man with a good job and a good reputation in the comunity told me to call him if I was just sitting here in my apartment with nothing to do. I smiled sweetly and said yes then you and Wendy (his wife) can come and keep me company. I don’t think he knew that I knew he had a wife so he played it off in an unbroken series of successful gestures. Maybe I shoulda taken him up on it. But I’m pretty sure Wendy would have something to say about that.

Daddy, it has nothing to do with logic. In this little one-horse southern town where most of the woman have to iron their pants in the driveway I could easily have as many men as I want because they look at me and fall all over themselvles like they never seen a woman before. If I was the kind of woman to do that I would care less for logic or if other women had any man. There are plenty women who are like that and would get all they can and can all they get and wouldn’t care about the logic or the numeric ratio. This argument is very academic. It looks good on paper. In its ideal form polygamy is logical. I’m not a lesbian. I don’t want to be a single parent and being alone drives me up the wall sometimes. But is that enough to make me or any American woman accept that man’s proposition if Wendy said she didn’t mind? Logic doesn’t seem to have too much to do with this. Is it inertia?

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That which does not kill me makes me stronger, but that which kills me does not destroy my strength. I take it with me as I go forth by day.

Peace is not the absence of trouble but the presence of God.

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#38 07-01-2004, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by river
This argument is very academic. It looks good on paper. In its ideal form polygamy is logical. I’m not a lesbian. I don’t want to be a single parent and being alone drives me up the wall sometimes. But is that enough to make me or any American woman accept that man’s proposition if Wendy said she didn’t mind? Logic doesn’t seem to have too much to do with this. Is it inertia?

I hear you sister River, but keep in mind I am talking about being a man’s second wife. I am not talking about being his concubine…his mistress…his jumpoff (in more recent terms). There is a definate difference, and the proposal wouldn’t be indecent or deceptive (like the one made to you by the “supposed” upstanding, married member of the community).

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#39 07-01-2004, 04:25 PM
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I know, Pan and I wish it could be a reality. I wish the ideal could work. I guess I just know the western mind too well to see that ideal being reached here. This is the scene: You and Ra present all your arguments to the supreme court and the nine say yes you are right. This is logical and it will solve a lot of problems. Then state by state it becomes legal and accepted for a man to have more than one wife. Then the feminists jump up and…No wait! I’m thinking through my argument and in order for the feminists to have their way there will have to be a large number of men willing to share one woman. That’s not going to happen. They may make it legal for a woman to have more than one husband but the men aren’t likely to go for this. Forget it. You take the prize in this debate.

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Peace is not the absence of trouble but the presence of God.

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#40 07-09-2004, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by river
I know, Pan and I wish it could be a reality. I wish the ideal could work. I guess I just know the western mind too well to see that ideal being reached here. Forget it. You take the prize in this debate.

Anyone who grew up in Western Society is going to struggle with this idea. As a man who is in a monogamous relationship with his wife (and content)…I wish that every man and woman could have the same. However, I know this to be numerically impossible because there are at least twice as many women as there are men. Match up every man in the world with a woman, and there would still be hundreds of millions of women by themselves….facts are facts! If 20 people attend a function with only 10 dinners, some are going to have to share, if everyone is going to eat. Trying to deny the obvious only brings frustration.

#41 07-09-2004, 09:07 AM
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And yet most people do not approach love from a logical standpoint. Even the ideal lover Prince Charming had three wives: Snow White, Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty. Still they lived happily ever after as far as I know. But Westerners love competition and I think they enjoy the idea of having millions of women feel like losers because they could not find a man, not because it is numerically impoossible but because these women just aren’t good enough–don’t have what it takes to get a man. With our all or nothing mentality it’s going to be hard to get western women to see polygamy as anything but settling.

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Africation Open a door in your mind. See what your brothas and sistas are doing in the worldwide African diaspora. Learn about the cultural traditions of Black folks around the world.

Ebony Minds Building unity and knowledge in the panAfrican diaspora

Ebony Botunde A place to share and receive healing for spiritual wounds
That which does not kill me makes me stronger, but that which kills me does not destroy my strength. I take it with me as I go forth by day.

Peace is not the absence of trouble but the presence of God.

Count the stars not the scars

If ya wanna walk on water ya gotta get out of da boat

If the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence it’s because the people on the other side are taking care of it

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#42 07-10-2004, 10:11 PM
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This discussion of polygamy is likened to someone trying to put on a new dress over some funky dirty underwear. The dress might look good, but you still nasty. You need to wash–the body and your drawz if you’re truly going to be clean.

I think it was stated clearly in the very beginning of this thread and in the threads downstairs where this topic is heavily discussed, that you literally have to undergo a total cleansing, if you will–a separation and deprogramming of what you currently know in order to fully to grasp the potential value that such a different type of relationship might have on individuals and society as a whole.

You can’t just pick up polygamy and plop it down in this western culture and expect it to work because it won’t as Brother James has stated. I don’t see women’s rights as an issue once new knowledge is obtained. I don’t see it as women competing with each other or subjugating themselves to a man who is in control. Polygamy means more than that and if it was ever accepted as a lifestyle, it too would be conformed to modern conditions to support the people involved. It’s just like anything–when new information is put in front of you, you tend to form opinions based on that new information and you will make the necessary adjustments as a result. Everything doesn’t have to and won’t necessarily remain the same–vis a vis same sex marriages. That is one perfect example of how society shifts in terms of what it believes in and will allow. It’s never a easy and smooth transition, but I believe that as we evolve, so will the institution of marriage.

So to really debate this topic and give it fair consideration, you must compare apples with apples and not apples with oranges.

That’s my humble opinion…

Queenie

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#43 07-11-2004, 11:27 AM
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well stated nnqueen….well stated

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