“NIGERIA:MAN WITH 86 WIVES:NORTHERN HUMAN RIGHTS GROUPS ACCUSE NIGER(STATE) GOVERNMENT OF PERSECUTION”-FROM VANGUARD NEWSPAPER(NIGERIA) SEPT.21,2008

from vanguard newspaper originally,found at allafrica.com

Nigeria: Man with 86 wives: Northern Human Rights Groups Accuse Niger Government of Persecution
Vanguard (Lagos)

21 September 2008
Posted to the web 22 September 2008

Emeka Mamah and Wole Mosadomi

Human rights groups in the north have faulted the trial of Islamic cleric, Bello Masaba, under the Penal Code law instead of Islamic law saying that the case is not genuine and accused the Niger State Government of persecuting the 84 year-old man, for marrying 86 wives.

Lead counsel to the Coalition of Human Rights, Mohammed Sanusi, who made their position known at a news conference in Kaduna, weekend, also faulted the non-admission of Alhaji Masaba to bail as the offences which he is alleged to have committed are bailable. Sanusi said the legal team would file a motion tomorrow, for the case to be struck out as the government has no genuine intentions in prosecuting Masaba.

Masaba was arraigned before an Upper Sharia Court in Minna for allegedly marrying 86 wives, contrary to Islamic tenets. His wives and children, however, protested the trial of their breadwinner saying that they did not complain to anybody that Alhaji Masaba cannot take care of his large family.

Sanusi said, “I’m the lead counsel and representative of human rights groups under the auspices of Civil Rights Congress. We are ready to provide our services to all the 86 wives and Masaba himself. Our observations in respect of his case, more particularly the offences alleged against Masaba. The offences were quoted under sections 210, 383 and 386 of the Penal Code.

“Since these offences were quoted under the Penal Code and not purely under Islamic Laws, there must be a complainant. But in this matter, who is the complainant? Under all these sections of the Penal Code, there must be a human being that must have complained of any offence, of any act or of any wrong against Masaba himself. The complainants should be his wives and children but unfortunately, his wives are not complaining. Recently, they even protested at the Ministry of Justice and the House of Assembly in Niger State against the detention of Masaba. The question now is: who is the complainant?”

Continuing, he said, “Let us take it that the government, the police or the local government or even the Emir are the complainants now, but in whose interest? The whole thing still goes back to the wives and children. But they have never complained against the man. And more importantly, putting Masaba in jail without granting him bail on the first day he was presented before the Upper Sharia Court, to us, is a breach of his fundamental human rights. Even the Constitution of Nigeria, Section 36 (5) presumes him to be innocent. As it is now, since Masaba did not plead guilty to the allegations against him, he should be taken to be innocent. Under the provisions of the law, that is the Penal Code, he has the right to be granted bail.

“But for him now to be refused bail, it shows that there is something fishy and that is why we decided to intervene in the matter. He may have explanations for his actions and if the offences alleged against him are purely under the Islamic Law, he needs not be prosecuted under the Penal Code. Under the Islamic Law, there are specific provisions under which he could be prosecuted and I believe even our constitution approves that. So, if he is going to be prosecuted under the Penal Code, then he should be granted bail. At least they have to consider many things, including his age, his enormous responsibilities to his family, more than one hundred children, his wives and other dependants.”

According to Sanusi, “By God’s grace we are going to do our best to render all the legal services we can provide to protect the rights of Masaba and his wives. The legal services we are going to render to Masaba will be purely on humanitarian grounds. So, it is going to be free. The Niger State Government has the right to complain but on whose behalf are they complaining? Their complaints must be on behalf of the children or the wives or even the relatives of these wives or their parents. If the police or the government is complaining for the purpose of public peace, such public peace is on whose interest? Has anybody reported that the man has encroached on anybody’s land for farming to take care of his family?

‘If they want to prosecute for, perhaps, offending one of the provisions of the Quran or the Hadith, these are laws; he should be prosecuted purely under these laws in the Quran and not under the Penal Code. If you are bringing him under the Penal Code, then it has become the interest of Nigerians or the law. Even under Islamic Law, there is provision to render defence to an accused. We are not saying he should not be prosecuted but it must be through due legal process. If you look at the whole issue, that man has been getting married, and the people who gave him their daughters knew that the man was married to several other women. So, why can’t those people too be prosecuted? They have aided and abetted him and so have committed the same offence. So, if we are to actually prosecute, a lot of people will be involved too. The case should be struck out because it is not genuine, under Section 141 of the Criminal Procedure Code.”

Meanwhile, Muslim youths in Bida, home of the octogenarian, Alhaji Abubarkar Belo Massaba with 86 wives and over 100 children, took to the streets of Bida on Friday with placards not only to disown his action but to pass a death sentence (Fatwah) on him.

Association of Muslim Lawyers of Nigeria, in a press conference in Minna, yesterday, also vowed to give free legal service to the Shariah commission in the on-going legal battle between the commission and Alhaji Massaba.

In Bida, after the youths had embarked on the peaceful demonstration carrying placards with inscriptions such as, “Massaba must die”, “Bello is not a Muslim”, “Bello must vacate Bida town”, ended up at the Bida local government secretariat to exhibit their anger to the chairman of the council who was represented by his vice, Alhaji Bako Ndayawo.

Speaking at the secretariat, the leader of the Muslim youths, Abdulrahman Aboki, said they had passed fatwah on Massaba “because he has blasphemed both God and Prophet Mohammed and he deserves to die”. He, however, said the sentence could be lifted if he repents by divorcing his wives and reducing them to four as proscribed by Islamic injunctions, adding that, most of the children were born outside wedlock.

The protesters were shepherded by heavily armed policemen as they went round the town. Immediate past chairman of the council, Mallam Edota, who also addressed the youths, threw his weigh behind them, saying, “Even if Massaba is released, he should be banished from Bida because he is not part of us”.

The Association of Muslim Lawyers, in their press conference in Minna addressed by its National President, Alhaji Dauda Adekola described Massaba as, “not part of us because he is not a true Moslem”.

While condemning the human rights groups for supporting the octogenarian, the lawyers described them as hypocrites and should hands off the case.

“NIGERIAN RIGHTS GROUP FIND 86 LAWYERS FOR MAN WITH 86 WIVES ARRESTED BY SHARIA LAW IN NIGERIA-ORIGINALLY FROM THE SUN NEWSPAPER,NIGERIA,SEPT.2008

FROM yahoonews.com

Nigeria rights groups find 86 lawyers for man with 86 wives Wed Sep 17, 11:10 AM ET

KANO (AFP) – A coalition of Nigerian human rights groups has mobilized 86 lawyers to defend the country’s most married man, currently detained for unlawful marriages and inciting contempt of Islamic religious laws, an activist said Wednesday.

“The coalition of 27 human rights groups in the north has mobilized 86 lawyers to defend Bello Masaba against the charges brought against him and the threat of banishment,” Shehu Sani, a human rights activist and playwright, told AFP in a telephone interview.

“It is our determination to protect his fundamental human rights as enshrined in the Nigerian constitution and international law,” Sani added. newly-wed

Sani is the director of Civil Rights Congress, a rights group based in the northern city of Kaduna and a member of the coalition.

He said the identities of the defence lawyers would not be disclosed for fear of blackmail and intimidation, adding that the coalition “will go to any length to defend Masaba whom we believe is a political prisoner and prisoner of conscience”.

Masaba, 84, was whisked away from his home town Bidda by police and arraigned before an Upper Sharia court in the state capital Minna “for incendiary contempt of religious laws and contracting unlawful marriage to 86 wives”, a court clerk told AFP.

Masaba came to the limelight two months ago when he admitted in the media to having 86 wives and 170 children, insisting that his marriages did not contravene Islam which allows a man to get married to up to four wives.

The news attracted sharp criticism and indignation from all over the north, particularly from Islamic clerics, with the Jama’atu Nasril Islam (JNI), the Nigerian Muslim umbrella body slamming a fatwa or death sentence on Masaba.

Two weeks ago, Masama agreed to divorce 82 of the wives and keep four, the maximum Islam allows, following a two-day ultimatum issued to him by the influential traditional chief of Bidda to either choose four among the 86 wives or leave the town.

“The choice of 86 lawyers is deliberate. For each wife, Masaba will have a lawyer,” Sani said.

THIS KENYAN BROTHER TELLS US ABOUT A DIFFERENT KIND OF POLYGAMY THAT WOMEN HAVE CREATED IN KENYA! FROM AFROWRITE.WORDPRESS.COM

from afrowrite.wordpress.com

Afrowrite’s Weblog
A site for discussing life, writing and publishing in africa
——————————————————————————–
Little Known Facts About African Polygamy (And Why Women Promote It)
May 24, 2008 by afrowrite
By Muli wa Kyendo

Today’s post is in reply to Sister Yeye Akilimali Funua Olade who, through an email, told me that she and her friends are promoting polygamy and the greatness of the black race. My dear sister, I read most of your blogs and I must say I am impressed by your enthusiasm, hard work and sacrifice. Although you are an American, in deed you live in the USA, you said you have lived in Nigeria for many years and raised your children there so they could learn the Yuroba language and culture. So I don’t need to bore you with the general details of our life in the East of our Great Continent. But I can assure you, we are a happy lot – happy because our lives are full of “cultural” drama, contradictions, ups and downs, ebbs and flows. As one man said, we take three steps forward and two back, but we are happily moving forward – slowly.

Polygamy

Like in the case of polygamy. Several years ago, my friend and writer David G. Maillu, published a book titled Our Kind of Polygamy to defend this age-old practice. He puts essentially the same arguments as you put – too many women chasing too few men, the right for all women to be married, the right of children to have legitimate fathers and so on. He even adds a manual for polygamous men on how to manage their wives. But I haven’t seen many men (or women) reading or referring to the book here in Kenya. My guess for this is that for us here, we are living that life. Almost every Kenyan lives in a polygamous home, grabbling with its realities – sometimes amusing, sometimes disappointing, and sometimes even grim. So we rarely have time left to think about it!

Let me tell you about our situation – the Kenyan situation. Because in Kenya we have many communities – call them tribes, if you like – Kenyans are always on the look out for a “neutral community” to produce a President. Many are convinced that a community called the Akamba – the fourth largest – would produce a good President. So gentle and “nice” are their men!

In Kenya’s disputed General Elections of December last year, a Mukamba – it means a person belonging to the Akamba community – was, among the Presidential candidates. In my view, he was the least credible. But Kenyans were willing to vote for him. And he would have been the President today if he hadn’t hopelessly bungled up his campaign. Why are the men so hopeless? Because of their women – at least, that it what research facts indicate.

Women propaganda, sticks and carrots

The Akamba men were socialized to worship physical power – fighting, cattle raiding, and so on. The women maintained a closely guarded culture of oppression in which men were excluded from all intellectual activities. The men’s only tasks were to raid cattle and guard the community. When they were not doing that, they were allowed to spend their time drinking beer or socializing. They were excluded from all creative activities where thought and tact would have been necessary. In deed, even in worshipping Mulungu, the Akamba God, the men were excluded. The women had, and still have, their own well organized religion called Kathambi. Their goddess, Kathambi, is the goddess of rain and fertility. The women associated rain and fertility with womanhood. And since men don’t give birth or menstruate, they were deemed incapable of communicating with Mulungu.

Kathambi women congregations

Kathambi is worshipped with Kilumi, a highly rhythmical dance with heavy drumming and which is today regarded the epitome of Akamba dances. It is danced for Presidents and eminent guests at almost all national days in Kenya. When danced during the women worships, the dance sends participants “into other worlds”. And only the women know how to bring those affected back to earth. The result is that many men are awed and fearful of the dance.

The congregation of Kathambi worshipping women is called Ngolano in Kikamba – that is their language – and the congregation is led by woman priestesses (those who have stopped menstruating and giving birth) in shrines called mathembo, composed of thick forests or huge trees.

The women’s system of prayer was – and still is – so elaborate it scared the White missionaries when they arrived in the country.

The Woman of Nzaui

The missionaries immediately “black listed” this women religion. It was their biggest challenge in their recruitment of the Akamba into Christianity. And the women recognized the Whiteman as their new and big enemy. The men were caught in between hate for the Whiteman and hate for the women, even as the fierce battle spread.

The first missionary had been so anxious to set up church in Ukambani – the area where the Akamba live – that he returned to America, put together an organisation he called African Inland Mission (today it’s called the African Inland Church) and return to Kenya armed with cash for the construction of a church. But the women wouldn’t let him construct a church; allowing him eventually to put a church only on a rock (the Church stands at a place called Nzaui even today).

The women, through their great intellectual power – influential poetry and song and sometimes direct confrontation (many of the priestesses were deported to island of Mombasa by the settler Government), continued their anti-colonial campaign, forcing the Whiteman to quit the mainland Ukambani, including Machakos, the town he had planned for the capital city of Kenya, and to move to Nairobi on the periphery.

The earliest Kenyan human rights campaigner

Just to give you a feel for the battle – there was a woman priestess named Syotuna. One day, she came upon a group of young Akamba men carrying a White District Commissioner on a stretcher. There were no roads in most parts of the country yet and stretchers with four hefty young men for bearers were the common mode of travel for European settlers, colonial government officials and White missionaries. Syotuna was so exasperated that she shouted at the young men, “Aren’t you ashamed to carry a man like yourselves!” And to the DC she shouted, “Why can’t you walk? Have you no legs?” The ashamed young men quickly dropped the stretcher and fled into the bushes, leaving the DC stranded.

These words are recorded by the DC who proceeded to deport Syotuna to Mombasa.

Did Women Invent Polygamy?

The Akamba men derided the women with derogatory remarks. The women tried to appease them by making them feel like great kings in their families. The women got men other women to marry for second, third, fourth or just many wives as the first wife wanted. But all these wives had loyalty to first wife, the woman who brought them into the family. Polygamy was therefore a way of women enhancing their power and control over men. (Compare that with the so-called patriarchs of the Old Testament. Women brought their husbands other women for wives and the men accepted without complaint or appreciation).

The result of this arrangement is that the community produces “nice” men, but who are totally unequipped for modern leadership. Generally they lack depth in thought and they are devoid of strategy and tactics, necessary for modern competitive world. My play, The Woman of Nzaui, discusses this issue.

Syokimau Cultural Centre

By the way, we have a not-for-profit membership cultural centre, the Syokimau Cultural Centre, where we are encouraged in promoting research and use of African culture in writing and in government development programmes. It’s named after the most ancient and the greatest of these priestesses (talk of oppression!). It is recognized by UNESCO and the Kenya Government. It will soon launch an e-newsletter to promote its work and to reach our members abroad.

Please let us know whether this has been of any use to you and your group. And let’s increase the debate even we encourage the preservation of the African culture.

Tags: African Polygamy, Akamba, Kenya, polygamy, Worship, Yuroba
Posted in Uncategorized | 1 Comment

THIS YORUBA(NIGERIAN)ACTRESS WOULDN’T MIND BEING THE 10TH OR 15TH WIFE….FROM PUNCH NEWSPAPER(NIGERIA)

from punchng.com

Published 5/10/2008 3:59:00 AM

I wouldn’t have minded a man with 10 or 15 wives–Nike Peller

Adeola Balogun

As a daughter of the late magician, Professor Abiola Peller, Nike Peller, no doubt is a very popular actress especially in the Yoruba genre. However, in an industry where marriages are often the subject of headlines, the light complexioned actress has opted for a quiet marriage.

Her reasons?

“If I should marry a socialite, I suspect it might not work because I know the kind of person I am. You know, being a popular artiste is another kettle of fish entirely. You know too that my father used to be very popular while he was alive. It had really bothered me for a long time but I thank God for answering my prayers with the kind of man he gave me. He is so easygoing, does not want noise and allows me to focus on my job without distraction.”

She said her beau never knew she was an actress before he approached her.

“I must tell you that we just met in a normal way. Funnily enough, he did not know anything about me when we met. Even though I had been very popular on the screen before he met me, he was not aware of anyone called Nike Peller. In fact, when I told him that I was Nike Abiola, he asked which of the Abiolas. Incidentally, he said he was a classmate of my brother, Kayode Abiola Peller. It was later that I told him that I was an actress and he didn’t care. I must tell you that getting someone like that on a neutral level suits my kind of life; it gives me the confidence that he got hooked to me as I am, not because of what I am. You know there are some men out there whose target is to date actresses they watch on the screen and dump them afterwards. They take delight in counting their conquests among the popular artistes around.”

But before she got hooked to her man, Peller told Spectacles that she had about two relationships, which did not work out.

She said, “I would say I had two relationships, one in England and one in Nigeria here. I believe that, perhaps, God did not want them to work. One of the reasons for the break ups was hearsay. You know we are always on locations and when you cannot trust the person you are going out with, the relationship is meaningless. If a man tells you that he is at Oyingbo, believe him if you don’t want to give yourselves unnecessary stress. That was what happened with the guy in England then. For the guy in Nigeria, I think it was more of his family background. He is a Christian while I am a Muslim, maybe his family didn’t want him to get married to a Muslim. But that does not really matter, whether you are a Muslim or a Christian does not really matter, what I want is where I can get happiness. My present man is a Christian but he understands everything about me. We relate like a brother and sister, I am always happy around him. The guy trusts me and I trust him.”

Peller does not mind getting married to a polygamous man so far she is happy.

“As a Muslim, I can get married to someone who has 10, 15 wives so far I am happy with him, it is between him and me. That is no big deal.”

As an actress, Peller does not see any reason why everyone should see women who act as a wayward bunch.

According to her, “I don’t allow this actress thing or stardom to get into my head. Let me tell you something, there are some things I cannot do as an actress because of my name. After my job, the next thing is my home. No matter what, a wife should be submissive to her husband even if she is a millionaire. You know, I am a Muslim and in Islam, you have to submit yourself to your man even if you are the richest woman on earth.”

Sometimes back, his brother who is now a bishop of Fingers of God Ministry, Kayode Abiola Peller dismissed as fake the magic their late father was famous for. He said what his father was doing and which he also practised, was nothing but deception. But Nike would hear none of that.

She said, “He cannot say that because it worked. I would say that my father was only entertaining the crowd in his own way. I am not surprised that you said my brother called my father’s magic fake. He is now a pastor and believes that the old things have gone away. My brother then was involved in it, in fact he was then known as Young Peller. We used to travel together to perform magic everywhere, but now that he is born again, no problem. All what I know is that my father was the greatest man in his lifetime. He was known all over the world because of his wonderful magic. He handled it professionally together with his family.”

After the demise of the late magician, none of his numerous children continued in his line of trade despite the fact that they were all involved in the business while the patriarch was alive. Nike Peller told Spectacles the reason.

“You cannot practise magic all alone. When Professor Peller was alive, most of the children were much younger and it was easy for him to involve us in his trade. It was a family thing. But now, we have grown and are scattered all over the world. That is why it is not easy for any of us to continue. If by tomorrow someone says he wants to start, he will have to recruit either his family, train them or get people around. It is a very serious business. All the instruments are still intact; nobody has touched them. But what I think has happened is that people have moved on, they no longer believe in the stunts. But while the man was alive, he did his best entertaining his fans.”

With her brother, Kayode, the actress told Spectacles that they explored the world of magic before something ugly happened: Their magic failed them and the young Peller got involved in drugs until he got born again. But the actress recalled that it was much fun while the party lasted. She described her father as the best father who made sure that his children enjoyed fatherly love despite being a polygamous man with many children.

“Even if you were not his child, you were treated same way. That is why then, there were so many people, Igbo, Hausa, name it, that my father catered for. He was kind-hearted and generous to a fault. We lived in a very big environment. There was peace in the family. The role Otunba Toyin is playing now is what he inherited from our father; he will call up everyone to find out what is happening to everyone. Otunba Toyin is our first born, he lives in Ibadan. If he is coming now, you will think it is our father that is coming, he so much looks like him,” she said.

Peller has been described as one of the actresses that bleached their skin. But she told Spectacles that those who wrote that did not know her family.

She said, “Thank God you know my brother, the pastor. We are all light skinned in our house. How can anyone say I bleached my skin? I am naturally light in complexion. Those who say I bleached don’t know us. Look at me very well. Do I look like someone who bleached? I don’t know whether you have met someone who bleached, you will see some patches here and there which I don’t have. If they have said I tone my skin, yes, what is wrong in that? It is normal for a light complexioned person to tone her skin a little, which I do.”

Even though she admitted that entertainment flows naturally in every Peller child, Peller told Spectacles that she was taught how to act.

“I started acting while in the primary school. The man that taught me how to sing, dance and act is still alive. He is Mr Dokun Awolere, a newscaster at LTV8, Ikeja. He used to be my teacher in the primary school and I am very proud of him. But coming to acting in the real sense of it, I was in school, Institute of Technology, in Akure in 1987 when a friend of mine asked me to come for auditioning. I told them that I had lectures unless they wanted to shift it for me till weekend. I remember very well that I was paid three thousand naira then because I played the lead role. The film was Aye Lu. I appeared in Mosebolatan by Baba Sala but I was among the crowd. I remember that Baba used to perform magic with Baba Sala then in Ibadan.”

Peller told Spectacles that she worked hard to be in the reckoning of producers, her background notwithstanding. She recalled her journey into the acting world when she met the likes of Alade Aromire, Yinka Quadri and the like.

She said, “I tell people that I was invited to the industry, not that I lobbied or did something nasty to get roles, no. I did not date anyone in the industry. Before I became one of them, I had been close to most of those in charge then. The likes of Oga Bello, who was my in law. Some people did not know that I was not the one married to him, it was my sister, Idiat Peller, though she is late now.”

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“CAN POLYGAMY SAVE THE BLACK FAMILY?” FROM DANCEHALLREGGAE.COM

FROM dancehallreggae.com

CAN POLYGAMY SAVE THE BLACK FAMILY?

CAN POLYGAMY SAVE THE BLACK FAMILY?

CAN POLYGAMY SAVE THE BLACK FAMILY? WHAT IS YOUR HONEST OPINION?

HERE IS AN INTERESTING ANALYSIS:

The African Family Structure

It would be a negligent oversight to examine the Afrikan family structure without making reference to polygyny (the practice of several women joining unto one man), which incidentally was first introduced into ancient societies by the Afrikan Woman. In the old days of Afrika’s glory the woman considered herself nothing without a man to defend her and a man was nothing without a woman and a family to defend. At this time polygyny was generally practiced throughout most of the world, a result of the Black Man’s cultural influence all around the globe. Polygyny or polygamy, as some call it, was adopted by Black Women to ensure every woman in the society having access to a man, whose primary role was protector, guide, provider and keeper of the realm.

As already stated, in these ancient Afrikan societies women were held in the highest honor and respect, the female entity was revered and oft-times worshipped as the Great Mother, Nourisher and Sustainer of life, the source of all terrestrial inspiration and the maintainer of revitalized life. This was the usual way of life in those wonderful days when the Black Man dominated the earth, widespread love, respect and affection was consistently demonstrated by the Black Man to the Black Woman. He delighted in adorning her with gold and silver often rhapsodizing to her in the most beautiful language (perhaps this is why sisters still love to hear a Black Man lay down some good “rap” even unto this day), the norm in ancient Black Society, where each gender clearly accepted and dignified their distinguished roles in the community with mutual affection and respect for one another. In those days of amorous joy Black Women delighted in dancing and singing praises to their men especially after they had returned from the battle (usually in defense of the homeland) or the hunt.

The family practices of the Black Man’s High Culture System began to deteriorate in certain parts of the world namely Europe and northern Asia when the Caucasian appeared on the scene. At first white Europeans with no real culture of their own, other than the insatiable love of warfare, tried to emulate the Afrikan in the practice of polygyny although there was no general change in his attitude regarding the treatment of the Caucasian woman. With the coming of syphilis and its wide-spread infections among the women of his race, which caused the largest percentage of the female population to die out like flies, the nomadic Caucasians leaving their bodies where they fell, the shortage in the already limited female population was intensified so the European shortly returned to monogamy, homosexuality and the wide-spread practice of polyandry – one woman, many men.

In the European custom of polyandry one woman, be she mother, daughter, sister and in some cases a queen, became the wife of as many as ten or more men, included in this group might be her father, her son, her brother, her cousin, her uncle as well as her husband and on certain occasions, at the whim of the family head man she was made available for the pleasure of all the men in the community. The ancient Europeans said their rationale for doing this was an attempt to minimize the constant fighting and bloodletting of rivals over the limited amount of women available.

It was out of this confusion that the patriarchal line of descent and the modern European system of monogamy was born. As a result of eventual European world domination many Black People and other peoples of color have been forced to adopt monogamy and in same cases rape and homosexuality as a cultural frame of reference. Subliminally this is one of the manifold reasons for the many traumatic Black Male-Female relationships in the United States and other parts of the world today. But in spite of this mental conditioning we as a people must join unto our own and through the proper light of understanding correctly put into practice those systems that will prosper and sustain us, insuring Our survival and longevity on the earth.

At this point a word of caution is in order. The above statements of historical fact – and it is an irrefutable fact that the practice of polygyny was the norm for Afrikans before the coming of the European – were not intended to denigrate or condemn those families where the Black Man and Woman mutually prefer a monogamous relationship, rather they have been cited to present the cultural roots, validity and obvious advantages of polygyny for Black families who wish to practice it today. Of course it must be clearly understood, especially by the brothers that this is not something you just up and jump into without careful thought and preparation, for there are great responsibilities involved.

But those Black Men and Women who are serious and adequately prepare themselves through consultation, study and self discipline applying the practice of polygyny on the high spiritual plane of which it was originally developed will eventually become some of the most respected and powerful men and women in the world. It is believed by some Black Scholars who have carefully and painstakingly studied the societal structures of Afrikan People that the correct application of this system could be a mighty key factor in the economic, spiritual, mental and physical survival of Blacks wherever we are in the world today.

One of the main reasons why polygyny was developed and practiced by the ancients was to enhance the economic power of the family, community and nation. Wherein a brother might achieve moderately well in a basic monoganous structure, he could maximize his efforts a hundred fold with the right combination of sister-wives. Bear in mind this idea was first introduced into the community by the women of the society. The biblical story of Jacob, the reputed father of the Israelite nation, mentions his four wives and how the first two brought the latter two into the family. In this present Euro-centric dominated society which is adverse to our very nature, it is somewhat difficult for us to practice those traditions which are more in tuned with our cosmic vibrations. Therefore we must adopt the wisdom of the Kawaida doctrine which advises us to practice “tradition and reason” as we strive to create a new society a better condition and a better world.

There is much truth in the old adage “Where there is a will, there is a way.”
As always it is imperative for us as a people to be constantly advancing in knowledge and understanding ever cultivating the habit of doing those things which contribute to our growth. Above all we must not allow ourselves to become stagnant or we will be like the sitting waters that provide a habitation and breeding ground for blood sucking mosquitoes which can be likened unto our natural enemy hovering overhead, ever ready to feed upon our spiritual being and suck out the life blood of our mind, buzzing about and laying the eggs of his degenerate society. Those brothers and sisters who may react to the above statements out of wild undiciplined emotion instead of the logic and scientific analysis of a sound mind which was originally created and given to you for the purpose of deductive reasoning, we advise; investigate and examine before you rush forward to condemn. Black People must be very certain that the concepts and decisions on the part of both male and female regarding the practice of polygyny are based on knowledge, wisdom, logic and understanding rather than negative emotional reaction.

In light of this let not the white-mindedness that to some degree has infected all of us be a stumbling block to our progress as a race.
In raising this issue we are fully aware that humans tend to see into a concept that which appeals to their own personal desires, therefore we do strongly urge this subject be approached with the right mental and spiritual attitude. For it is our fervent prayer that we as a people may soon move from a position of weak powerlessness to our own proper position of power and strength on the Earth. Again we admonish those brothers and sisters who are desirous of practicing polygyny to study and investigate it well,being certain to properly prepare themselves mentally, physically and spiritually so as to avoid the emotional pain and suffering which is repercussive of incorrect and clandestine dealings.

At all times the brother must be honest, fair, wise and strong in order for the sisters to feel confident and secure in the relationship. In light of the wide percentage gap between the Black Female and Black Male population, particularly in America, sisters should adopt a cooperative spirit, while seeking ways to remedy this situation. Every Black Woman who needs and wants one should have a Black man. Remember the survival of the race is at stake here, not our uncontrolled emotions.

As I review the great benefits of polygyny to our ancient societies I’m inclined, while at the same time considering our present position here in the western hemisphere, to propose that this way of life must be revived and redeveloped in this day but it must be done correctly and in harmony with good principles. There is much information and many living examples of this practice available to those who diligently seek it out. Again let us reaffirm that this subject was not presented to foment consternation or to cause brothers and sisters to throw up their defenses, “jump salty with each other” and become polarized into forming opposing camps but rather as a review and examination of a historical reality which has been a component of the Afrikan way of life from earliest times unto the present. We trust those few who may not be in agreement with us in this matter will not assume a hostile posture and discount all the other points of vital information in this book. And so with undying Black Love for all, ponder it will understand the true spirit in which it was set forth.

Surely the Creator who revealed the divine light of understanding to our Ancestors in the past is the best knower and the best doer. Now let us consider some of the other sharply contrasting, irreconcilable distinctions which eternally exist between the Afrikan and the Caucasian.

http://www.cultural-expressions.com/thesis/polygamy

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09-10-2006, 12:21 PM #2
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That was a big post.

Afrikan people have been brainwased inro the uncleanly yurugu way of thinking.

Its time to come back to the foundation. I 100% believe in polygamy.When its practiced righteously and morally.

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09-10-2006, 12:40 PM #3
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It’s out dated now … No need for it ..

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09-10-2006, 03:59 PM #4
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I DON’T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT STILL…AS LONG AS ITS DONE WITH RESPECT.

SAME THING WITH THE GYALLICE DEM NOWADAYS…..IF YOU AGO HAVE ONE BAG A WOMAN…AT LEAST DEAL WITH DEM GOOD.
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So we finally find common ground……
09-10-2006, 04:14 PM #5
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Big post Jihad…… cant fight yu on this one!

Poligamy or multiple wives are a biblical practice so anything my God endorse mi hafi support…..

Every king should have at least two queens….. stamp out adultry and fornication, man fi have as many wives as he can support…..

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09-10-2006, 04:21 PM #6
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09-10-2006, 04:39 PM #7
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why it can’t be a woman having multiple husbands ?? see,it doesn’t work out

It’s not right…

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09-10-2006, 05:01 PM #8
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Originally Posted by higherlevels
why it can’t be a woman having multiple husbands ?? see,it doesn’t work out

It’s not right…

Stop being an idiot…… what do you know about right and wrong.

If you want a woman that keeps many men you can get one, nuff a dem out deh.
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09-10-2006, 05:10 PM #9
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Stop being an idiot…… what do you know about right and wrong.

If you want a woman that keeps many men you can get one, nuff a dem out deh.

why it’s always the man who can have nuff wifes ??

keep it equal and simple yute ..

That system is not good for women,you gotta respect these ladies rasta yute …fulltime now ..

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09-10-2006, 05:16 PM #10
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King of swaziland just got 14th wife…she like 30 years younger than him!
the reasons behind polygamy have been distorted and are now a status thing…nothing against it if its done right tho..
Z

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09-10-2006, 05:37 PM #11
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why it’s always the man who can have nuff wifes ??

keep it equal and simple yute ..

That system is not good for women,you gotta respect these ladies rasta yute …fulltime now ..

I would explain it to you but the mere fact that it needs explaination is evident that it would be lost on you.

Keep believing yu feminist gender bias …. if yu believe you and a woman is equal then maybe you should go get yu a few husbands too…
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09-10-2006, 05:43 PM #12
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I would explain it to you but the mere fact that it needs explaination is evident that it would be lost on you.

Keep believing yu feminist gender bias fart…. if yu believe you and a woman is equal then maybe you should go get yu a few husbands too…

yeah,this a joke ..yeah the man is used as sperm donor. So poly is just a man thing ?? Why should any woman be in this relationship ?? Enough black babies deh bout. No need for it today.

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09-10-2006, 05:53 PM #13
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Damn, can’t believe JIHAD and JesusDread actually agreeing on something! Nice to see finally!

As a female, I am not sure I would want to be in a polygamous marriage, unless I was wife #1. Can’t tek backseat to no other female. The only way a polygamous marriage could possibly work is if the man can equally divide his time, attention,respect, and affection amongst the wives. There could be no preferential treatment. He would have to be able to financially support and sustain his multiple families, amongst other things. The way the economy is I don’t see that happening, but maybe I am wrong. It is hard enough to sustain one family, much less 3 or 4 families. Besides, I don’t know if any man can equally divide himself amongst more than one wife…..it is hard alone to divide yourself between spouse and child.
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09-10-2006, 05:53 PM #14
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I agree, so long (as stated) it is done with respect and honesty

Quote:
Originally Posted by higherlevels
why it can’t be a woman having multiple husbands ?? see,it doesn’t work out

It’s not right…

Maybe because there are more women than there are men in the world!

and as for the famous old time saying…
a women cannot do what the men do and still be a lady!

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09-10-2006, 05:58 PM #15
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Damn, can’t believe JIHAD and JesusDread actually agreeing on something! Nice to see finally!

As a female, I am not sure I would want to be in a polygamous marriage, unless I was wife #1. Can’t tek backseat to no other female. The only way a polygamous marriage could possibly work is if the man can equally divide his time, attention,respect, and affection amongst the wives. There could be no preferential treatment. He would have to be able to financially support and sustain his multiple families, amongst other things. The way the economy is I don’t see that happening, but maybe I am wrong. It is hard enough to sustain one family, much less 3 or 4 families. Besides, I don’t know if any man can equally divide himself amongst more than one wife…..it is hard alone to divide yourself between spouse and child.

idiot ..that makes no sense ..if you don’t respect being a second wife position,you won’t respect the second and third wife

hence you wouldn’t be a good first wife.

I don’t even see how people like you wanna be number 1,when its not something ur use to.

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09-10-2006, 06:01 PM #16
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I agree, so long (as stated) it is done with respect and honesty

Maybe because there are more women than there are men in the world!

and as for the famous old time saying…
a women cannot do what the men do and still be a lady!

it’s a bad practice in my view. I want to love 1 woman,not 20. In today’s world having 60 children is not really required. It’s almost crazy to even take this seriously.

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09-10-2006, 07:06 PM #17
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idiot ..that makes no sense ..if you don’t respect being a second wife position,you won’t respect the second and third wife

hence you wouldn’t be a good first wife.

I don’t even see how people like you wanna be number 1,when its not something ur use to.

DUMB ASS learn to read….that is why I said I DO NOT think I would do it.
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09-10-2006, 07:08 PM #18
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DUMB ASS learn to read….that is why I said I DO NOT think I would do it.

why the hell would i read everything if the first part makes no sense ?? think me have time fi waste ? ?

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09-10-2006, 07:13 PM #19
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Quote:
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As a female, I am not sure I would want to be in a polygamous marriage, unless I was wife #1.

Actually, no Slick, you presented a scenario that you would acquiesce to. Higherlevels just pointed out that irregularity, within character of course .

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09-10-2006, 07:31 PM #20
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Remember the survival of the race is at stake here, not our uncontrolled emotions.

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09-10-2006, 08:27 PM #21
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Originally Posted by higherlevels
yeah,this a joke ..yeah the man is used as sperm donor. So poly is just a man thing ?? Why should any woman be in this relationship ?? Enough black babies deh bout. No need for it today.

This aint just about making babies yute, well maybe in Jihad’s point of view.

This is about family and relationship… isn’t it better to have two or three wives that you love and cherish than be forced to have one and a bag of mateys and one night stands? Dont try and tell me you only a sex one woman and that yu faithful to her… so whose way is better ethically and emotionally?

Sometimes yu fi stop and think outside of the box babylon have yu trapped in yute…

Multiple marriages is approved of by God… go read the bible… but a woman should have only one husband… matter of fact a woman by right should remain a virgin till she’s married but babylon society pressure everybody fi have sex as a casual passtime.

Anyway, gwaan go join yu female harem weh yu wife have 10 husband since yu a advocate equality between man and woman…. clown.
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09-10-2006, 10:47 PM #22
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I think the key issue is not the form of the marriage but the bond between a man and his children, we are lacking that seriously within the black community.

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09-11-2006, 06:12 AM #23
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Polygamy doesn’t work, if it did wouldn’t it be the norm. I also think it makes for jealousy and a mixture of emotions. What kind of example and confusion is it setting for the children involved. The only thing I can see that the guy is gaining out of it is a variety of women to shag. What are the odds of all three of them having a headache one night

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09-11-2006, 06:24 AM #24
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Good point One Shot….if black men (and women) would take care of their resposnibilities to their children, the black community would be better off……I don’t see how being in a polygamous marriage would help that.

Okay, in a polygamous there may be more women around in these children lives, where if one is lacking on their parental obligations, the other “mothers” could pick up the slack, but what about the father? How would he propose to take care of all the children not only financially, but emotionally as well? How can he give those children “normal” lives when he is having to spend other days with his other wives and children? IMO that is no different than men who have a wife, and a woman on the side with a child (of his).

The survival of our race wouldn’t be an issue if people were more responsible as parents. IF you don’t want a child or know that you cannot be a responsible parent, then cover up or protect yourself. Don’t bring children into this world leaving them to fend for themselves.
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09-11-2006, 07:08 AM #25
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Like everything else, polygamy can be abused. We dont need to get into details to explain this but if done with respect and out of love, having two or more wives might mean the end or the drastic diminishing of absent fathers and broken black homes/families. How many kids are now fatherless or only see dad occasionally just because dad had another woman? If polygamy was allowed, many kids would have a father in the home and the benefit of being raised by two or more ‘moms’ instead of one stressed out madda.

I am not saying polygamy is for everyone or should be a requirement, just that it should be allowed for those who are willing to go that route. Almost every man I know have or has had more than one woman at some time or other and the cheating, sneaking around and lying was so unfair and unnecessary… If it wasn’t looked down on by society for a man to have more than one wife/lover a lot of anguish, hurt and jealousy would be eliminated from the black family structure.
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09-11-2006, 08:01 AM #26
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JD
Quote:
If it wasn’t looked down on by society for a man to have more than one wife/lover a lot of anguish, hurt and jealousy would be eliminated from the black family structure.

Do you seriously think there is no anguish, hurt and jealousy in a polygamous relationship?

I think polygamous relationships are for weak insecure women who want to hang on to their man no matter what or obviously for those in whose society it occurs in and is considered the norm, even though it is permitted in Islam, the vast majority of muslims DO NOT practice it.

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09-11-2006, 08:10 AM #27
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JD

Do you seriously think there is no anguish, hurt and jealousy in a polygamous relationship?

I think polygamous relationships are for weak insecure women who want to hang on to their man no matter what or obviously for those in whose society it occurs in and is considered the norm, even though it is permitted in Islam, the vast majority of muslims DO NOT practice it.

On the contrary little girl, it takes a very strong woman to deal with polygamy, something you will never be…. now run along and go eat your bacon and ham sandwich…

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09-11-2006, 08:15 AM #28
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Don’t answer my point again if you are unable to make an intelligent response. For some reason you think it bothers me to read the pig, bacon and ham comments, nah bother ya head sonny.

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09-11-2006, 08:48 AM #29
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Don’t answer my point again if you are unable to make an intelligent response. For some reason you think it bothers me to read the pig, bacon and ham comments, nah bother ya head sonny.

Ofcourse it doesnt bother you, you eat it dont you? And you are what you eat…

Just another one of your inconsistencies, a pork eating, breast exposing, overly assertive feminist muslim cow. I would have more respect for your opinions if it was consistent with the faith you claim…. you’re just a babylonized muslim anyway, just as anoying as the radicals….
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09-11-2006, 09:28 AM #30
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you eat it dont you? And you are what you eat… overly assertive feminist muslim cow

Make up your mind please, am I a Muslim pig or a cow.

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09-11-2006, 09:43 AM #31
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you again……?

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Make up your mind please, am I a Muslim pig or a cow.

dats what I dont like about you… you are all three

Dearest Laila, please dont take my insults to heart, I honestly dont dislike you… just your irritating opinions…
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09-11-2006, 10:51 AM #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneshot
I think the key issue is not the form of the marriage but the bond between a man and his children, we are lacking that seriously within the black community.

so, in certain cases, would it be more beneficial to have a polygamous (polyandrous) union where the wife has more than one husband as HL mentioned…

@HL, there are places were women have more than one husband. it happens where the population is the reverse of ours and men outnumber women…

Polyandry has occurred in Tibet (see Polyandry in Tibet), the Canadian Arctic, Zanskar, Nepal, India, Zanskar, Ladakh, Toda of South India, Nairs of Kerala, the Nymba, Nishi and Pahari of North India, and Sri Lanka. It is also encountered in some regions of Mongolia, China (especially Yunnan- the Mosuo people), and in some Subsaharan African and American indigenous communities (notably the Surui of northwestern Brazil). The Guanches, the first known inhabitants of the Canary Islands, also practiced it until their disappearance. In other societies, there are people who live in de facto polyandrous arrangements that are not recognized by the law.

Some forms of polyandry appear to be associated with a) the perceived need to retain aristocratic titles or agricultural lands within kin groups, and/or b) with frequent male absence, for long periods, from the household. As to the former variety, consider that in Tibet where the practice is particularly popular among the wealthy Sakya priestly nobility as well as poor small farmers who could ill afford to divide their small holdings. As to the latter variety, as some males return to the household, others leave for a long time, so that there is usually one husband present.

09-11-2006, 11:51 AM #33
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there is no problem w/ it.
like ALL WISE IDEAS
there are fools that see it for something else.

i personally dont see the apeal of having many women bitchin at me cause them pmsin

but it works some people.
my grandfather is the KING a that game

i got aunts and uncles that a 3-4 years younger than mi lol

im for it but only for people who respect their wives and dodn’t mistreat the idea

personally i’d just consider slick to be enuff and not want no more wifey’s

good drop jihad.
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09-11-2006, 06:11 PM #34
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personally i’d just consider slick to be enuff and not want no more wifey’s

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09-11-2006, 06:40 PM #36
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Listen mate, what you think of me doesn’t really figure. It annoys you that a Muslim female can be assertive, it sort of goes against your idea of the downtrodden submissive oppressed female. You know nothing about how I practice my religion apart from the titbits I portray on here. As for being consistent with my faith, what exactly am I not doing?

Now if you’re able to format a reply without a mention of pigs, bacon, ham, cows, etc go ahead, if not, don’t bother your dreads about it.

Okay, I wont bother my dreads…..

But yu fi stop eat babylon food… the pig is unclean….
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09-11-2006, 10:11 PM #37
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lol this was to be a selfless act of love
the idea being you wouldn’t see it

but since you on to it
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09-11-2006, 10:24 PM #38
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I t takes strong men and women to create a balance such as this.
Unfortunately people are too logged into this European Matrix to overstand the essence of these practices.
Women in this time focus too much on competing with men and believe it is justified because of past injustices made unto woman kind in the past.
Most AFRICKAN men do not have a strong male principle set as far as traditions and AFRIKANESS.
So in this modern world we are forced to adopt European principles which are a direct opposite of what we have done from ANCIENT TIMES.
We as the young and “liberated” live in a dual society where our culture as Afrikans is seen as backward and primitave versus the modern greek based EURO society.
Babylon in this time having created instability in our society using the Lynch methods which has almost erased our story,culture and livity

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09-11-2006, 10:51 PM #39
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Originally Posted by JesusDread
Fi real Ghetto yout…. we so babylonized dat we hate our own customs even though we still cant properly fit into the white man’s ways.

Our principles and values are so out of whack that most negros see the white guys ways as the only or best way, quick to dismiss eons of traditions in favor of hedonism and sodomy i.e. white culture….

Exactly my point !

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09-12-2006, 07:55 AM #41
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Originally Posted by Ghetto_yout
I t takes strong men and women to create a balance such as this.
Unfortunately people are too logged into this European Matrix to overstand the essence of these practices.
Women in this time focus too much on competing with men and believe it is justified because of past injustices made unto woman kind in the past.
Most AFRICKAN men do not have a strong male principle set as far as traditions and AFRIKANESS.
So in this modern world we are forced to adopt European principles which are a direct opposite of what we have done from ANCIENT TIMES.
We as the young and “liberated” live in a dual society where our culture as Afrikans is seen as backward and primitave versus the modern greek based EURO society.
Babylon in this time having created instability in our society using the Lynch methods which has almost erased our story,culture and livity

All valid points, but what is your stance on polygamy?

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09-12-2006, 10:09 AM #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanRoundtable
so, in certain cases, would it be more beneficial to have a polygamous (polyandrous) union where the wife has more than one husband as HL mentioned…

@HL, there are places were women have more than one husband. it happens where the population is the reverse of ours and men outnumber women…

One must remember in this societies marriage is also used as a form of population control, 1 woman 9 husbands .. one child a year, 1 man 9 wives – well 9 children a year (at least), when it comes to black people we talking bout fixing the family structure so that it supports the growth of a young black baby to a culturally responsible comtributing member of society

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09-12-2006, 04:57 PM #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneshot
One must remember in this societies marriage is also used as a form of population control, 1 woman 9 husbands .. one child a year, 1 man 9 wives – well 9 children a year (at least), when it comes to black people we talking bout fixing the family structure so that it supports the growth of a young black baby to a culturally responsible comtributing member of society

so would you conclude that polyandrous relationships would be more effective for the black community than monogamous or polygamous ones? here, the children would have the support of mommy and several daddies. how could a child go wrong?

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09-12-2006, 09:03 PM #44
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Originally Posted by UrbanRoundtable
so would you conclude that polyandrous relationships would be more effective for the black community than monogamous or polygamous ones? here, the children would have the support of mommy and several daddies. how could a child go wrong?

i dont believe polygamous or polyandrous relationships.

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09-13-2006, 02:39 AM #45
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Originally Posted by Oneshot
i dont believe polygamous or polyandrous relationships.

you dont have to believe in something to know its worth…

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09-13-2006, 03:03 AM #46
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Polygamous marriage were practice to help poor women 2 live, that y it was most of da time practiced by kings, leaders,rich mans…

So I do beleive in polygamy only if u a rich man that can treat all ur women equal. so it must be practice in a right way.

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09-13-2006, 07:26 AM #47
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Originally Posted by Laila
If I want to disagree with parts of MY religion, I will and I personally DO NOT ACCEPT polygamy.

even if yu poor and the only way make ur kids live is 2 marry a rich man ?

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Last edited by alwash00 : 09-13-2006 at 04:49 PM.

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09-13-2006, 04:36 PM #54
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it is the duty of a muslim man to marry more than one if he can ,,,,,treat them equal……….but if the woman dont allow it you cant………….

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09-13-2006, 06:34 PM #55
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Quote:
First of all, it aint YOUR religion…. second, no one says you have to agree with polygamy but if you’re gonna disagree with Islam stop claiming you are muslim, you are a heretic….. and fast becoming an infidel…. definately a Jezebel already…

The way I practice my religion is dear to ME. As for the polygamy issue, how many Muslims actually practice this?. If they were to AGREE with it, surely it would be the norm within Islam for every Muslim male to have 4 – 5 wifes. In retrospect the VAST MAJORITY do not practice it, so does this, therefore, mean that they disagree with this part of the teaching? The same goes for the veil, not all female muslims choose to veil, this is at odds with the interpretation of the passage in the Quran. This, therefore, shows that NOT ALL MUSLIMS are blind followers and choose what is important to them.

As for Jezebel, care to expand?

Quote:
Ignorance, disrespect, profanity, childishness, blasphemy and the list could go on but point is already made…

Oh dear
blasphemy!! he cries, Jesus Dread you are not an Imam from Iran, you simply cannot issue a fatwa. Where exactly have I been blasphenous and about what? WHAT POINT HAS BEEN MADE ALREADY, PRAY DO TELL ? As for the rest, who can be more childish than a chubby pastor photoshopping pigs?

Quote:
See what I mean…. them disses would earn you a propper flogging in the market square in Pakistan….. aint it sweet living in and acting like babylon?

Pakistan is not Saudi.
Plenty of non-religious people speaking out there.
Big Clap for Musharraf!
Whoppee!

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09-13-2006, 06:36 PM #56
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Originally Posted by taliban1
it is the duty of a muslim man to marry more than one if he can ,,,,,treat them equal……….but if the woman dont allow it you cant………….

You don’t say.

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09-13-2006, 06:38 PM #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alwash00
even if yu poor and the only way make ur kids live is 2 marry a rich man ?

Well I wouldn’t have kids would I without wedlock if I was a good muslim female.

No, I don’t play second fiddle to anyone. There are plenty of muslim females the world over who are poor and have NOT resorted to polygamy.

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09-13-2006, 06:39 PM #58
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Originally Posted by JesusDread
Truss mi Taliman, culturally and morally, mi a more muslim than Laila….

ermmmm
NOPE
Impossible.
Stick to Jesus your saviour.

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????
09-13-2006, 07:39 PM #59
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WHAT HAPPENED TO ANSWERING THE ORIGINAL QUESTION OF THE THREAD?

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09-13-2006, 07:41 PM #60
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as for the polygamy issue i hear you that not many people practise it ?
WELL THE PROPHET OF GOD ENCOURAGED IT (IF YOU HAD THE MEANS)

who is jesusdread to talk to you?
WELL HE IS AHLE KITHAB (IS HE NOT?)

musharraf and iran to you might be a big thing but to me there nothing ?

whos talking about out of wedlock ?
IF THERE IS A WOMAN WHO IS A WIDOW(FOR EXAMPLE) WITH FOUR KIDS AND A MUSLIM MAN WHO HAS GOT ONE WIFE AND NUFF MONEY ……………………………HE SHOULD TAKE ON HER AS WIFE NO.2 AND TREAT HER AS EQUAL TO NO.1

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09-14-2006, 02:20 PM #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laila
The way I practice my religion is dear to ME. As for the polygamy issue, how many Muslims actually practice this?. If they were to AGREE with it, surely it would be the norm within Islam for every Muslim male to have 4 – 5 wifes. In retrospect the VAST MAJORITY do not practice it, so does this, therefore, mean that they disagree with this part of the teaching? The same goes for the veil, not all female muslims choose to veil, this is at odds with the interpretation of the passage in the Quran. This, therefore, shows that NOT ALL MUSLIMS are blind followers and choose what is important to them.

Why does a follower have to be blind just because they adhere to the teachings of Quran?

Multiple marriages are not a requirement but a privilage, so it is not surprising that all muslims would not be in polygamous relationships, not everyone drives a car but that doesn’t mean cars are wrong. That’s what irritates me anbout your thinking/reasoning, you have tunnel vision. Stop trying so hard to be so close minded and look around, read some history books, look at life through nature’s eyes and stop restricting yourself to man made rules.

Quote:
As for Jezebel, care to expand?

Jezebel was a woman who became queen in Israel through treachery and gave men a hard time, basically a bitch..

Quote:
Oh dear
blasphemy!! he cries, Jesus Dread you are not an Imam from Iran, you simply cannot issue a fatwa. Where exactly have I been blasphenous and about what? WHAT POINT HAS BEEN MADE ALREADY, PRAY DO TELL ? As for the rest, who can be more childish than a chubby pastor photoshopping pigs?

Quite funny indeed that you of all people would try and call anyone chubby… the cow that you are!!!

But yes, I do photoshop pigs and you are epitome of all pigs which explains why I photochopped you..

Quote:
Pakistan is not Saudi.
Plenty of non-religious people speaking out there.
Big Clap for Musharraf!
Whoppee!

Whooptideedoo, you are Pakistani and not Saudi so what’s your point? Plus they still flog retches like you in Pakistan, any man can walk up to your tit revealing butt and whip the fool outa you and no one would utter a word of displeasure….
__________________

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09-14-2006, 05:27 PM #62
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Quote:
Why does a follower have to be blind just because they adhere to the teachings of Quran?

Multiple marriages are not a requirement but a privilage, so it is not surprising that all muslims would not be in polygamous relationships, not everyone drives a car but that doesn’t mean cars are wrong. That’s what irritates me anbout your thinking/reasoning, you have tunnel vision. Stop trying so hard to be so close minded and look around, read some history books, look at life through nature’s eyes and stop restricting yourself to man made rules.

The Quran advises that you question and seek further knowledge.

As regards to it not being a requirement, polygamy is certainly condoned, which is enough for anyone who wishes to practice it. Don’t be so patronising, he who can’t see beyond his own faith.

As for the rest of your post, I’m not being a party to your continual effort to make jibes at me under the guise of debate.

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“SINGER AKON PRACTICES POLYGAMY?” FROM RACIALICIOUS.COM

from racialicious.com

Singer Akon practices polygamy?
by Carmen Van Kerckhove

I’m not sure if this is for real, but according to Vibe Confidential:

Today my homegirl and co-worker, Hot 97 host Angie Martinez spoke to Akon about relationships. Akon, who recently released a single with Eminem, explained that as an African (Ak’ is from a very prominent music family in Senegal) he believes in polygamy. His father had four wives, all of whom he considers “Mom”.

It also turns out that Akon has taken up a Senegalese lifestyle here, because after a little hesitation, the singer-producer admitted that he has his own multi-monogamous household going down in the ATL!

Cause you know, all Africans believe in polygamy. Anyway, supposedly Miss Info has the scoop over at her Celebrity Drama Podcast on the Hot97 web site. But with no show descriptions, I have no idea which episode is the relevant one.

Comments
mamazilla wrote:

this just reminded me that coetzee’s novel “disgrace” is being made into a film with john malkovich cast as david lurie – http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0445953/

if i remember correctly, in the novel ( set in post apartheid south africa) lurie’s daughter enters into a polygamist marriage with her neighbor.

Posted 29 Sep 2006 at 11:35 am ¶

dcase wrote:

Despite its illegality, polygamy is quite rampant in Utah and other Western states. There seems to be an apprehension among the authorities to go after them. I wonder why? Hmm…it is possible that Ruby Ridge and Waco have something to do with that. Maybe Akon should move out there. On the other hand, they might not be so patient with him and his ilk. Recall what happened in Philly.

Posted 29 Sep 2006 at 3:59 pm ¶

Kevin wrote:

That’s what I’m talking about! lol. Go, Akon!

Posted 01 Oct 2006 at 1:45 pm ¶

monique wrote:

IT ISNT LAWFUL IN CHRISTIANITY TO BE POLYGAMOUS. AKON IS MUSLIM. SO ITS OK FOR HIM TO HAVE MORE THAN ONE WIFE.
ALOT OF BLACKS NEED TO LEARN TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES INSTEAD OF FOLLOWING WHAT SUPERSTARS ARE DOING. I BET NOT ONE OF U THOUGHT ABOUT HOW THE WOMAN WOULD FEEL THAT THE MAN KEEPS TAKEING UP DIFFERENT WIVES. I BET THAT SLIPPED ALOT YOUR MINDS.

Posted 09 Oct 2006 at 12:14 pm ¶

Joyel wrote:

First of all, polygamy has its bad side also.(directed to the person who thought polygamy is good for the African American community, psh). If you’ve ever even talked to anyone who is in a polygamous relationship, rather than just watching a television show or using your own personal desires. It’s not all dandilions and dumplin’s.
Its very hard in polygamy to treat EVERY wife fairly. If you have 5 wives, you need to give 5 wives the same thing. You also need to provide a bedroom for each wife because most beds can only support 2 people sleeping within it. Also, even if there were a bed for five wives there’d be an argument about which wife sleeps next to the husband b.c if one gets to sleep next to the husband and the other doesn’t–that’s not fair. Also, along with a bedroom for each wife, there is a bedroom for the children. And if you have 7+ children–that would be a lot of bedrooms. So obviously you would need to be very rich for supporting a polygamous relationship. Believe me, I know because my uncle is in a polygamist relationship (of which he isn’t following the rules to it because he’s not treating his wives fairly). And he told my grandfather why he couldn’t let all 3 of his wives visit us at the same time:

they were all jealous of each other. (Apparently) I can imagine that deep down inside without saying it; each woman has their own jealousies. Also, have we forgot about polyandry???? (hmm, many of you may not know what that means. The woman is so looked down upon in this society is sickening. Learn something– search the word. You’d find nothing but a mere definition for it. Search polygamy, you have 1000’s of sites on it. A little bit unfair, don’t you think? I think that if polygamy is allowed than polyandry should be allowed. (also, polygamy means a plural marriage– it’s not even a word which means 1 man and several wives. But since the man rules, polygamy has been kind of adopted to that meaning).

Men have to think about the times of today and the feelings of women. Children aren’t everything. And anyway, the more population, the more at a loss we are. That’s why I’m determined not to have any children, or any husband(s) in my lifetime. I think its a waste of my time that needn’t be bothered with. Instead I rather help with the children that are already suffering and on earth (by adopting them) rather than getting with a man and having 4 other sister wives to create more children.

My opinion. It’s a long one. Enjoy

Posted 12 Oct 2006 at 10:17 pm ¶

Ann wrote:

Great post, Joyel.

There is an asian country, I’m not sure if it is Nepal or Tibet, where one woman marries all the brothers in a family. That is one type of polyandry.

Polyandry would be better, as there would be much LESS humans in the world, but it would be hard to get more than one man to agree to polyandry, as it already impossible to get them to agree to MONOGAMY!

Eli Rothblatt.

Having numerous children just for the sake of numbers is not only cruel to the children but downright stupid. There is not strength in numbers.

There is strength in bringing children into the world who are WANTED AND APPRECIATED.

Laying up and grinding out infant after infant with numerous females is something that dogs, bulls and stallions do. And they are animals ( and my humblest apologies to all the animals out there I may have offended.)

And as to the black communtity pumping out more babies and taking on polygamy; that disgraceful immoral behaviour is already going on in the so-called “man-sharing” that some black women are doing.

No man is worth that heartache, disease or psychological trauma.

The human race has bred enough like rats and roaches.

Besides, it can get very expensive building all those bedrooms onto the house.

Posted 12 Oct 2006 at 11:40 pm ¶

Joyel wrote:

Greater post, Ann!

Finally there is another woman in this world who thinks such as I does. For the most part, I’m running into women who can see themselves in that kind of relationship. The relationships doesn’t even make sense in this society now as it is (to be honest). There is so much jealousy that goes into it. And men…think about treating every woman fairly! With every little thing, down to the clothes in their wardrobe to the quality time you spend with each one.

It’s also drastic to think about why polygamy may have risen in the first place in this world. Back then, more wives meant more children, more children meant more availiable workers on the field, more avaliable workers on the field meant more food on the plate and more money! So obviously it would have been sensible to be in a polygamous relationship, just to survive BUT that was long ago.

Now look at a polygamous relationship in 2006; more wives means more children, more children means more clothes, beds, and food. More clothes, beds and food means you need more money. So would it make sense to even start a polygamous relationship when even the monogamous ones are hard to financially overcome? I think not, maybe it would be easier if there werent’ any child labor laws (like back then) but wipe your tears men, there are.

Even the Bible gives advice to stay away from polygamous marriages. I read one passage from the Bible in the Old Testament that explains a situation where two wives get into an dispute about inheritance. That probably happens a lot in polygamous marriages, usually they settle it through giving it to the first wife but doesn’t that also contradict the rule of treating every wife fairly??? I think so…if it doesn’t. Please speak on that.

Also, if polygamy was allowed: think about the competition that would arise from it. Look at the Morman polygamists in Utah, you already have them throwing teen boys out into a deserted area to die so they can get more women to marry. Thankfully, usually the ‘lost boys of polygamy’ (search it) don’t die but they do have a HUGE new outlook on the aspects of polygamy. Better believe it…

Also, why create more children when you can help the children already suffering. In my point of view, I see that as really selfish. We already have a problem, why create a new one?

So my question is:

Why, oh why, is polygamy STILL needed?

Posted 13 Oct 2006 at 3:55 pm ¶

Adina wrote:

Akon is just getting publicity for himself by bringing up the practice of polgyamy. In this American hiphop culture, the pimp and player character are very prevalent and accepted. So, this is another way for Akon to display from his roots “the player” and his original pimpology as an African.

I guess he is doing more good then harm, but only time will tell. Definitely, go to his website, and see for yourself. The main video on his site is him and his wife travelling to South Africa and maybe a bit of Senegal and being welcomed over there. Also, definitely watch the “Pot of Gold” video he has. It is a very wise view of the history of racism, and where we are today.

If you didn’t already know, Senegal’s president Abdoulaye Wade who is 81 years old is married to Viviane Wade, a white Christian from France and they’ve been married for more than 50 years.

http://www.akononline.com

Posted 29 Oct 2006 at 10:18 am ¶

#1Queen of Chicago wrote:

Wow, I am in complete shock guys because I have just found out yesterday that my “drop dead gorgeous” Jamaican guyfrom FL. that I met in person in ‘05 and I have been talking to (long distance for a min.) currently believes/practices/and lives in a polygamous lifestyle and has maybe 1-2 wives/women and two beautiful daughters by I guess his 1st wife. Listenb-4 yall start snapping off, we were only really good-good friends so its not like he cheated on me, ok. He is such a handsome loving young guy, I can not say one bad thing about him period so far,… but now today I am “frozen in time” like woah hold up you’ve just dropped a tone of info on me, I’m like woah-woah back up a bit, ya know…because of course I am a young beautiful African American(lil on the spoiled side especially in the man dept, one of chi-towns finest, if you no what I mean, holla somebody!), Christian girl, highly educated w/2 degrees, etc,… and just when I thought I found a winner, a great catch, a great Jamaican guy/blackman…I slowly but surely find out that 2 other women also think that he is a great guy bec. they’ve got 2 him b-4 I did,of course. My life continues to get exciting I need to write a book about the things that I encounter, which is why I love to travel and meet new people. But, I really have to catch myself fast bec. I have to be honest with you guys, I’m considering it bec. I really like him, he is fineass hell, a hard worker, a great provider, communicator, friend and lover (meaning he stresses love of family, doing the right things in life to have a good and prosperous life and future here in America). We have already been discussing children&marriage etc.,prior to me finding this out,… (actually the 2nd day after we met he sort of mentioned it but I just thought it was a cute gesture, nothing serious but surprise he was dead serious) I do not have children yet and I’d always considered him as my baby father bec. of his honesty, charming personality, humor, intellect, masculinity, etc… and I know he is a great father, he loves children. He wants a son now and more children with me in the future and he wants me to live in FL. with the family. I need some insight fast bec. I know my mother, grandmother, aunts, uncles and family would probably kill me for even considering it bec. God knows that I wasn’t raised that way.

Hey, but just keeping it real, there is a lot of “man sharing”, “baby’s daddy”, “babymamas”, “numerous single families by one male” that is prevalent in the hood/African American culture and even other cultures and has been done in secretcy as well as broad open daylight, it appears to mirror a similar a design/ trend of polygamy, not to say that that it is right, but I am just saying, whose to say these days. Personally, I never thought that I would have came across this issue in Oct.31,2006 but it has been revealed to me that polygamy still exists on the downlow. My Jamaican guy stressed the importance of one love in the family, financial support and structure and order in the household and he basically wants to know if I am “in”(meaning do I approve) so that we can go to the next step! Now, I’m left to decide if it is right for me either way he says he respects my decision…Holla at the Queen!

#1Queen of Chicago

Posted 31 Oct 2006 at 9:49 am ¶

shayla wrote:

akon you is one of my biggest fan and i really want to get to meet you. you are so fine i just can’t get my mind off of you so i’m just plannin on meeting you. please come to louisiana because this is where you have alot of friends and fans. everybody is counting on you out here. please read this as quick as you can.please write me back and let me know how you feel about this. come to opelousas at opelousas junior high school and sing for us.well i just hope you can come.
peace,love, write back.

Posted 28 Nov 2006 at 3:57 pm ¶

Anonymous wrote:

is akon a muslim

Posted 09 Dec 2006 at 5:54 am ¶

tina wrote:

All Africans do not believe in polygamy. I have been married to my husband who is African, (kenyan to be exact), for 7 years and he has no other wives. We travel to Africa often and believe it or not Africa is westernized for the most part. I just hate when people put Africans all in one boat. There are 50 different countries in Africa. These pepole are so different and for some ignorant people to say that all of them practice polygamy is so stupid. I am African American and my husband treat me so much better than any american man has. I am not trying to down american men, I am just trying to strech my point. So what if this guy has more than more wife….. is he any different from these american men who are married and sleep around on thier wives. At least the African women know that they are not the only woman in the realtionship. Don’t pass judgement on akon. He is not form here and he comes from a different culture than we do. He makes good music so let’s just stay out of his personal business. Now if he makes a fucked up album then we can bash him until then fall of of him and his wives…..if this rumor has any truth to it anyway. And people please remember that Africans are a diverse group of people and we should not put them in one category.

Posted 21 Dec 2006 at 8:08 pm ¶

bill wrote:

AKON IS A MAH FUCKIN P I M P! Let the man do what he wants as long as he and his wives are happy!

Posted 01 Feb 2007 at 4:20 pm ¶

chris wrote:

as Devin the Dude best put it: “do what the f*ck you wanna do…”

Posted 04 Feb 2007 at 4:19 am ¶

Michael wrote:

Hey dcase, 2nd comment…polygamy ISN’T quite rampant in Utah, so you know. In the mid- 1800’s yeah, not now…just so you’re aware!

Posted 08 Jul 2007 at 12:39 am ¶

Alonyah wrote:

I am glad to hear this, but if my people would understand that we are destintes from Africa and has been taught another peoples ways not our true ways. Part of our problem as a people is we have left our Power in the Old Testament as they call it.

Our families are in trouble we have more women then men more so among us because of different things in which we all know of such as prison and etc. Our families are suffering and the women are single to long, divorced and more not understanding that a man has been created to have more then one wife and this is great as long as the men be honest, truthful but because we have taken on other peoples ways this is the result. Lies and deceit and the women except that is American place is not doing anything for us as a people. So polygamy is one solution to our sitution among other things we need to do. If we women would learn to truly love each other as family should we would have best friends and a man that would make sure he loves us and takes care of his children. There is so much i would like to say on this subject and more if i am give the opportunity i feel it would be a great help to my people, the African American community. We have taken on someones elses ways and don’t know who we really are as a people.

Posted 18 Jan 2008 at 4:46 pm ¶

Tina wrote:

First i would like to say this is something that should be considered since there are so many women more than men. More so black women for our problem is much greater. We have been mislead by this Western World, we must remember that we come from our ancestor who were slaves that came from another side of the world. At one time all of the African continet and in the East have practiced this type of life style.

Now that does not men a man can just do what ever he wants and not be charged by the creator. One must be true, honest and real even thou it may cost you not to have the African American women from this side of the world. For we no nothing of our true history as a people nor do we take the time to study. It has been said put the information in a book and the majoridy of us will not read it.

Also the bible has spoken of this type of life style for a long time we must move higher as a people to show the world that we do know how to love for real mostly or women and of course our brothers need a lesson in what love is really all about. It is not just about sex even thou sex has it’s part to play. We have lost all love for each other and ourselves as a people. This can be one of the solutions to bring our families back into the strength that it should be. Women being best friends, sharing the duties of the house and also putting our finances together to grow strong. Love is a wonderful thing and people will say how can a man love more than one women it is ease for a man but a women can truely only love her man that is the way it is or she is considered a whore sorry i had to say that. This Western Place is hypocritical in so any ways and this has been from the being, we must not forget what type of place we are dealing with. Everybody can almost do what they want as long as they can help there own or you better have money. Sister’s let’s love each other as we should and build our families to greatness. If you know science the female has 2 X chromosomes and the male has a Y & a X the X chromosome is for the female and the Y is male so in the beginning our power made 3 females to 1 male and now we have a greater problem for this was and is for the development the population and it is still for us to grow now more than ever, for we are lessing and as a people. We need to show the power of love for each other male and female.

I have so much more to present but it can’t be all said at once. There are question people have and i have the answer’s try me.

Posted 18 Jan 2008 at 7:42 pm ¶

#1Queen of Chicago wrote:

First of all I would like to thank you all for your honest opinions on this subject it has helped me out a lot..

I would like to say (to Tina) that there is a major misunderstanding of African-Americans not studying, acknowledging and embracing their culture and history from Western Africa before the inception of slavery in America in the 1600’s. I want to make it known that yes I am a young African-American Woman that has embraced my culture 1000% which is why I love my people 1000%, which is why I refer to myself as a Queen because I recognize Nefetiti, Cleopatra, so many more,etc. Honey, It may not cost a man a loss of love from and African-American woman from this side of the world (as you implied in one of your statements) I make a conscious attempt to connect with my roots even though I do not know the EXACT tribe that my ancestors came from (I’m being sarcastic). I’m a little irritated by those who want to assume that African-American women are completely oblivious to there AFRICAN culture and history prior to slavery “WE ARE NOT THAT IGNORANT”. However, that does not change the fact that we are AFRICAN-AMERICANS born and raised here in America hundreds of years after the atrocities that our ancestor had to endure because of SLAVERY. I want to add that I LOVE MY PEOPLE 1000%, therefore I have and I continue to make a conscious effort to embrace all cultures of the African Diaspora because unless I have a Genealogy test done I still do not know exactly which village my ancestors lived in 450 or so years ago (I’m being sarcastic). I’ll have you know that I have a minor in African studies, I have visited Jamaica, I have studied and I can speak FRENCH(which is spoken in West Africa, West Indies etc,.) (I study and understand read and write Jamaican dialect (which is called Patios) I have a large African Art collection, I’ve frequent all Museums and African or Caribbean Festival etc. However, it will never convert me to being a women of 400 or so plus years ago in Africa (sweetheart), I’m still an African-American or Afro-American woman (whatever floats your boat ) of today and it will never change that reality. Now, I agree some people do not read, research or study much about the past of traditional ways from Africa because they are to busy struggling to make ends meet or whatever there excuse maybe and some people are closed minded to the world and or change back to African traditional ways as a solution to save our family structure and financial support system and future but that does not mean that applies to all African American people, I am not one of those people that you consider to be ignorant! I see how this is one solution that can strengthen love, trust and financial foundation in the African American culture even though it was not taught to me I have researched and discovered it on my own(I’m not Lazy,being sarcastic again, you know that stereotype that blacks are lazy) and I do understand it as an option! However, some people will argue that the Bible is against it, yes polygamy is presented it the Old Testament it was also taught that it was condemned as well by God so that is why it is different for Americans to easily adopt, as they were taught different beliefs, values and biblical principles which are obvious. But, I still feel it is up to what each individual chooses and feels is right for them if this is their case because as I said I’m in Love and it actually sees no limits or boundaries at all no matter what anyone says or beliefs to be right or wrong to me because I know in my HEART I should be with the Man that I love, whether he has 5 or more wives. Love is very powerful and a natural thing you never no when it can happen to you.
Ok now that I have addressed those misconceptions about African- American women knowledge of their history, culture and religion, I pointed out in my previous posting on 10/06 that I was presented with this option and I had communicated that I was shocked because I had just found out about his lifestyle. I was aware of this type of lifestyle in African but I was not aware of this/his lifestyle here in American. That was basically the point I was trying to make and once it was presented to me then I had to question everything, my beliefs, my upbringing, my feelings of love etc., etc., Maybe this decision would be easier for a woman that was more closely connected to this way of life but it was different for me at that time because I had just found it out. I know what LOVE is, it is just a different way of life that I was not currently accustomed to living. I had pointed out that I was open to considering it because I do understand my culture and all the dynamics of family structure etc. I had to make myself clear to you again, I do not like for others to assume that people do not read and they are ignorant and unaware so I had to address a few point that were made which I saw as being very destructive to the entire discussion. Again, my man has not lost the love of his African-American women from this side of the World because our LOVE has gotten even stronger thank you very much,so i should/will not be left behind nor will I go overlooked by my Jamaican man Honey! I am an African-American woman that understands and loves her Black men, culture and community more than we give her credit for or are willing to acknowledge her for and I was not born in Africa, nor Jamaica, I was born raised and educated in the United States of America!

Thanks Again,
#1Queen of Chicago

(I had to make some minor corrections to name in spellings sorry about it)

Posted 22 Apr 2008 at 12:54 pm ¶

Sister Yeye Olade wrote:

Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Polygamy is the fastest growing marriage system in Blackamerikkka! The Black muslims,Rastas,Black people into Yoruba religion, Ancient Egyptian religion are all doing it! I started doing what I call “Positive Polygamy” in amerikkka before I went BACK to AFRICA,Nigeria,Yorubaland with my late BLACKamerikkkan husband and am now in a polygamous situation with a Yoruba family. Believe me those of us in it can practice GOOD relationships for the Sister wives,the BLACK children and the great Black men who share fairly and squarely. Check us out at:
yeyeolade.wordpress.com
(under “Positve Polygamy” and
blackpolygamy.wordpress.com
Your Sister who went Back to Africa,30 years ago ,
Yeye Akilimali Funua Olade

Posted 28 Apr 2008 at 8:22 am ¶

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A WHITE LOOK AT BLACKamerikkkan HEBREW POLYGAMIST IN ISRAEL AT JEWISHSF.COM

from jewishsf.com

Friday July 23, 2004

A fascinating look at Israel’s polygamist Black Hebrews

by suzanne weiss
correspondent

When you think of polygamy, you tend to think: Utah. Well, think again.

There is a religious sect in Israel that not only condones but encourages the taking of as many wives, up to seven, that a man can handle. “Sister Wife,” a fascinating documentary by co-directed and produced by Timna Goldstein and Hadar Kleinman for Alden Films, traces the problems that one family has with only two.

Atur is a Black Hebrew, one of a number of African Americans who moved to Israel in 1969. Weary of ghetto life in the United States, they followed a charismatic leader to Dimona in the Negev, establishing a community and forging a new identity. The children were taught Hebrew and Torah, and the community’s worship evolved into an interesting combination of ancient liturgy, African chant, gospel singing and rock and roll. “In america we had rhythm and blues. In Israel, we have rhythm and Jews,” jokes one of the sect’s leaders.

As if this wasn’t odd enough, the practice of taking multiple wives is followed by all who can afford it. Atur, a former heroin dealer from Detroit and now a respected member of Dimona society, is one. After 21 years of marriage to Ziporah, who has given him nine children, he wishes to marry a young girl. He expects his first wife to be cool with that and, by and large, she seems to be. At least in the beginning.

“I’ll just put him on a platter and hand him to her,” she quips to her friends. But, in private moments caught on camera, you can see the tightness in her face.

The wedding is an affair of African drums and wildly colored clothes, mixed with pop love songs and Jewish ritual. Ziporah endures it with a smile — she knows everyone is watching her reaction — but when she gets home she dials her mother in the States. After some small talk, she tells her the news. “Get outta here!” her mama says and proceeds to outline what would happen to any man who did that to her.

The new wife doesn’t have a mother and, in time, the older Ziporah becomes something of a surrogate.

Once Ziporah overcomes her initial resentment. she learns to take advantage of the situation. She goes power-walking with friends and joins a choir while the second wife, now pregnant, stays home with the kids. But it’s a two-way street and when Atur is away, Ziporah steps in, offering both physical and moral support.

The women in this strange society have to stick together. They are taught they are nothing without their men. “Woman does not exist outside of serving Adam (man),” counsels the Kohan officiating at the wedding. “There is no other pathway to God save through your lord.”

As for Atur, “It’s a king’s life,” he says as he lays out plans to enlarge his house. In fact, he confesses, he would like to take still another wife. He seems fairly typical of the transplanted Americans who like their new lives, in spite of the difficulties. (“America was our slave country,” Ziporah explains.)

Whether Israel is reciprocally enthusiastic remains to be seen. After 35 years of residency, the Black Hebrews, though granted permanent residency status in 2003, are still denied full Israeli citizenship.

“Sister Wife” (60 minutes, $49.95). Information: Alden Films (732) 462-3522 or http://www.aldenfilms.com.

A WHITE INTERPRETATION OF BLACK AMERIKKKAN HEBREW’S POLYGAMY IN ISRAEL!

FROM jewishsf.com

Printer Friendly

Email to A Friend
Friday July 23, 2004

A fascinating look at Israel’s polygamist Black Hebrews

by suzanne weiss
correspondent

When you think of polygamy, you tend to think: Utah. Well, think again.

There is a religious sect in Israel that not only condones but encourages the taking of as many wives, up to seven, that a man can handle. “Sister Wife,” a fascinating documentary by co-directed and produced by Timna Goldstein and Hadar Kleinman for Alden Films, traces the problems that one family has with only two.

Atur is a Black Hebrew, one of a number of African Americans who moved to Israel in 1969. Weary of ghetto life in the United States, they followed a charismatic leader to Dimona in the Negev, establishing a community and forging a new identity. The children were taught Hebrew and Torah, and the community’s worship evolved into an interesting combination of ancient liturgy, African chant, gospel singing and rock and roll. “In america we had rhythm and blues. In Israel, we have rhythm and Jews,” jokes one of the sect’s leaders.

As if this wasn’t odd enough, the practice of taking multiple wives is followed by all who can afford it. Atur, a former heroin dealer from Detroit and now a respected member of Dimona society, is one. After 21 years of marriage to Ziporah, who has given him nine children, he wishes to marry a young girl. He expects his first wife to be cool with that and, by and large, she seems to be. At least in the beginning.

“I’ll just put him on a platter and hand him to her,” she quips to her friends. But, in private moments caught on camera, you can see the tightness in her face.

The wedding is an affair of African drums and wildly colored clothes, mixed with pop love songs and Jewish ritual. Ziporah endures it with a smile — she knows everyone is watching her reaction — but when she gets home she dials her mother in the States. After some small talk, she tells her the news. “Get outta here!” her mama says and proceeds to outline what would happen to any man who did that to her.

The new wife doesn’t have a mother and, in time, the older Ziporah becomes something of a surrogate.

Once Ziporah overcomes her initial resentment. she learns to take advantage of the situation. She goes power-walking with friends and joins a choir while the second wife, now pregnant, stays home with the kids. But it’s a two-way street and when Atur is away, Ziporah steps in, offering both physical and moral support.

The women in this strange society have to stick together. They are taught they are nothing without their men. “Woman does not exist outside of serving Adam (man),” counsels the Kohan officiating at the wedding. “There is no other pathway to God save through your lord.”

As for Atur, “It’s a king’s life,” he says as he lays out plans to enlarge his house. In fact, he confesses, he would like to take still another wife. He seems fairly typical of the transplanted Americans who like their new lives, in spite of the difficulties. (“America was our slave country,” Ziporah explains.)

Whether Israel is reciprocally enthusiastic remains to be seen. After 35 years of residency, the Black Hebrews, though granted permanent residency status in 2003, are still denied full Israeli citizenship.

“Sister Wife” (60 minutes, $49.95). Information: Alden Films (732) 462-3522 or http://www.aldenfilms.com.

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“POLYGAMY,PROS AND CONS” AT BLACKPLANET.COM

from blackplanet.com

POLYGAMY Pros & Cons? Please Comment (64) Reply Comments Options

Texas357
Male, 26, Milwaukee, WI

Posted Jan 7

Pros:
2 heads are always better than 1.
3 paychecks beat 2.
It takes a villiage to raise a child.

Cons:
Jealousy
extra expenses
more people = more conflict

Is a polygamy the product of loving more than 1 woman/ or man?
or is it a man/or woman being greedy?

Does po;ygamy cross religious lines?
social lines?
Have you ever lived and were involved romantically with more than 1 person at a time?

Report Abuse

Quote Member

karmababy_karma
Male, 39, Missouri City, TX

Posted Jan 12

Texas357
Male, 26, Milwaukee, WI

Pros:
2 heads are always better than 1.
3 paychecks beat 2.
It takes a villiage to raise a child.

Cons:
Jealousy
extra expenses
more people = more conflict

Is a polygamy the product of loving more than 1 woman/ or man?
or is it a man/or woman being greedy?

Does po;ygamy cross religious lines?
social lines?
Have you ever lived and were involved romantically with more than 1 person at a time?

CON #1, It’s illegal and you will do time.

But after that, it’s got to have a great upside if we could. If we could secretly vote nationally on whether to allow it or not, I think it would garner 90%+ from males and around 50% from the females. But it would HAVE to be a truly secret vote cuz spouses of voting partners would be livid if they really found out the truth of their spouses feeling on the subject.

It dang sho’ would keep the wives in line and keep the trifling arguments at a minimum. It would also keep competing husbands tuned into their wife’s needs (safety, security, financially grounded, etc.).

Historically, Men had multiple wives and populations prospered and grew. It also ensured that ONLY the top of the food chain had children. This most recent act of monogomous relationships, to me, is just a bunch of jealous women that talked their weak minded husbands into “getting married”.

Good food for thought though,

Buddah

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Quote Member

Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

Posted Jan 16

Texas357
Male, 26, Milwaukee, WI

Pros:
2 heads are always better than 1.
3 paychecks beat 2.
It takes a villiage to raise a child.

Cons:
Jealousy
extra expenses
more people = more conflict

Is a polygamy the product of loving more than 1 woman/ or man?
or is it a man/or woman being greedy?

Does po;ygamy cross religious lines?
social lines?
Have you ever lived and were involved romantically with more than 1 person at a time?

a BIG con: It’s ILLEGAL.

Report Abuse

Quote Member

SenorCafeDa2nd
Male, Age Private, Paterson, NJ

Posted Jan 17

Polygamy goes on every day in every city without the formalities that will land you in jail, If you homie got a steady girl and a girl on the side he in a polygamous relationship, it may be a secretive polygamous relationship but nevertheless its polygamous.

In the black community single available black women outnumber single available black men, are we saying that because there aren’t enough black men to go around that a black woman should be deprived of a relationship, intimacy with a black man. I fully support polygamy in a legal sense, legal polygamy would strengthen the black community.

Report Abuse

Quote Member

Crystal_Pistol1
Female, 23, Ethiopia

Posted Jan 18

SenorCafeDa2nd
Male, Age Private, Paterson, NJ

Polygamy goes on every day in every city without the formalities that will land you in jail, If you homie got a steady girl and a girl on the side he in a polygamous relationship, it may be a secretive polygamous relationship but nevertheless its polygamous.

In the black community single available black women outnumber single available black men, are we saying that because there aren’t enough black men to go around that a black woman should be deprived of a relationship, intimacy with a black man. I fully support polygamy in a legal sense, legal polygamy would strengthen the black community.

what you just described is not polygyny but promiscurity. period.

Report Abuse

Quote Member

Crystal_Pistol1
Female, 23, Ethiopia

Posted Jan 18

In response to the question posed.

There are two forms of polygamy: Polyandry is the practice of a woman having more than husband.
Polygyny is the practice of a man having more than one wife.

Now let’s discuss.

Polygyny in the traditonal sense does not benefit the husband in the way that a ‘western’ mindest would believe. The benefits for the brother is that he has a larger family to continue his name once he has made the transition. Polygyny in it’s traditonal sense was designed to uplift the sisters. It ensured that no woman would go without the covering of a man in societies that had more women and that each woman would have a child…which is very important. It was also common amongst Matriarchal and Matrilineal socities b/c it is/was the women who control polygyny and how many sister wives there should be to a family.

Is it about a man having more sexual partners. No. It is a responsibilty and a man has to balance himself fairly amongst the sister or his family. why? Because it’s not up to him to go get another wife. It’s the wives/wife already involved who make that decision.

My grandfather was a polygynist when he was alive. He didn’t have a bunch of wives but he had two. Actually in my family we practice both forms of marriage. some of my family members are monogamous and some are polygamous. It can work if the people involved go into it with the right approach and heart.

With that said…not everyone can be a polygynist and for most it will be monogamy….but just to shatter some common myths though.

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smack_u_silly
Male, Age Private, Vancouver, BC

Posted Jan 18

con: in most cases of polygamy , don’t the women stay at home? that means they’re not making any money, right? bad idea.

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Quote Member

Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

Posted Jan 18

Just read and interesting comment on wikipedia: the University of Cambridge in England, compared about 20 monogamous and polygynous vertebrate species, found the more polygynous a species was, the more likely their males were to age faster and die earlier than females.

I guess in that sense, it REALLY doesn’t benefit the husband, LOL. Maybe he’s wearing his body out by having to work harder to support all his wives and kids, and to have energy to fucc like bunnies.

The only time I hear about polygamy in the news, it involves some wayward white trash old Mormons in bumfucc, Idaho marrying little girls and pushing boys out of their communities. If Black men are allowed to marry more than one wife, would it lead to the same result? History certainly suggests it.

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Quote Member

Texas357
Male, 26, Milwaukee, WI

Posted Jan 18

@all- i appreciate the commets. i agree with you all…..i was raised in a southern baptist home where monogamy was preached, but i felt very differently about the subject and had to end my first marriage because of that. i have been married and lived with more than 1 woman before and there were some things i had to get used to, but i loved it! i’ve always wanted a big family and my current wife is supporting of my lifestyle choice. i get put down all the time by women who think that my lifestyle choice makes me a bad person. i would like to meet other people who feel the same way i do……..i didnt choose this lifestyle for the sex, but because i can love more than 1 woman at once.

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Quote Member

Crystal_Pistol1
Female, 23, Ethiopia

Posted Jan 18

Texas357
Male, 26, Milwaukee, WI

@all- i appreciate the commets. i agree with you all…..i was raised in a southern baptist home where monogamy was preached, but i felt very differently about the subject and had to end my first marriage because of that. i have been married and lived with more than 1 woman before and there were some things i had to get used to, but i loved it! i’ve always wanted a big family and my current wife is supporting of my lifestyle choice. i get put down all the time by women who think that my lifestyle choice makes me a bad person. i would like to meet other people who feel the same way i do……..i didnt choose this lifestyle for the sex, but because i can love more than 1 woman at once.

So are you doing the choosing? Or is it left up to your wife?

What i don’t respect is groups where the choosing is done by the men.

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Quote Member

Crystal_Pistol1
Female, 23, Ethiopia

Posted Jan 18

Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

Just read and interesting comment on wikipedia: the University of Cambridge in England, compared about 20 monogamous and polygynous vertebrate species, found the more polygynous a species was, the more likely their males were to age faster and die earlier than females.

I guess in that sense, it REALLY doesn’t benefit the husband, LOL. Maybe he’s wearing his body out by having to work harder to support all his wives and kids, and to have energy to fucc like bunnies.

The only time I hear about polygamy in the news, it involves some wayward white trash old Mormons in bumfucc, Idaho marrying little girls and pushing boys out of their communities. If Black men are allowed to marry more than one wife, would it lead to the same result? History certainly suggests it.

But those are coming from a eurocentric perspective. in most cases…we shouldn’t compare eurocentric systems of belief to pple of color. In non western societies…it is not what you described.

There is a traditonal way to approach polygyny and in some cases polyandry…the elders of the community and the women folk usually have a better insight on it.

As far as finances…most polygynist families that i know…have choosen the wives carefully. each sister brings a talent to the table. One family i know personally…one sister operates and run the family business and the other sister is a Ph.d holder who writes…bringing more income to the family. Of course the husband does the bulk of the background work for the business that they have. Actually it’s not about how many wives a man has or money…judging from what i’ve seen it’s about close knit families and happiness.

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smack_u_silly
Male, Age Private, Vancouver, BC

Posted Jan 18

Crystal_Pistol1
Female, 23, Ethiopia

But those are coming from a eurocentric perspective. in most cases…we shouldn’t compare eurocentric systems of belief to pple of color. In non western societies…it is not what you described.

There is a traditonal way to approach polygyny and in some cases polyandry…the elders of the community and the women folk usually have a better insight on it.

As far as finances…most polygynist families that i know…have choosen the wives carefully. each sister brings a talent to the table. One family i know personally…one sister operates and run the family business and the other sister is a Ph.d holder who writes…bringing more income to the family. Of course the husband does the bulk of the background work for the business that they have. Actually it’s not about how many wives a man has or money…judging from what i’ve seen it’s about close knit families and happiness.

crystal, most of us live in a western european society, with western european mores, values and, most importantly LAWS.

most of the black folks in the u.s., canada grew up in a capitalistic western society, not an african or ‘eastern’ society. as such, those mores, values, etc. , simply mean little to us.

its agains the law to have multiple spouses in the u.s and canada. that aint gonna change anytime soon.

if it did, men compete with women for the SAME JOBS, therefore, almost by default, you’re likely not to have working women agree to share a husband who also works. that means the wives would have to be ‘stay at home’ and live off one income of the husband. that dont cut it in the modern world.

there are no financial, societal, legal benefits to having multiple spouses in the western world we live in. NONE.

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Quote Member

Crystal_Pistol1
Female, 23, Ethiopia

Posted Jan 18

smack_u_silly
Male, Age Private, Vancouver, BC

crystal, most of us live in a western european society, with western european mores, values and, most importantly LAWS.

most of the black folks in the u.s., canada grew up in a capitalistic western society, not an african or ‘eastern’ society. as such, those mores, values, etc. , simply mean little to us.

its agains the law to have multiple spouses in the u.s and canada. that aint gonna change anytime soon.

if it did, men compete with women for the SAME JOBS, therefore, almost by default, you’re likely not to have working women agree to share a husband who also works. that means the wives would have to be ‘stay at home’ and live off one income of the husband. that dont cut it in the modern world.

there are no financial, societal, legal benefits to having multiple spouses in the western world we live in. NONE.

And thats cool…

i was just wanting to explain to people that having multiple spouses was not about sex.

I’m not saying anybody in the U.S or Canada should even consider polygamy…i just get pretty darn upset when men and women try to compare promiscurity with monogamy or polygamy,not saying that you did…so many people just don’t respect the institution of marriage anymore.

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Quote Member

Texas357
Male, 26, Milwaukee, WI

Posted Jan 19

@crystal- thank you so much for your imformative post. you’re right more sex is definitely not my goal…….the decision is mutual, but of course my wife’s vote counts twice since i’d have 0 wives vs. 2 if i went against her. & yes i do believe in the institution of marriage. people working together to achieve a common goal is a beautiful thing regardless of whether it be a romantic, political or business relationship.

@raven- i appreciate the facts. You’re right about dying early. a woman requires a lot of attention, but i enjoy the challenge. i would die happy if i could spend my life with the people i loved most……there are a lot of polygamous families in the US, but they dont get counted because it’s illegal. either 1 is married or they dont get married at all which is a fast increasing number of families in the US. filing different address is also a common practice. i think a lot of people like myself dont consider themselves polygamist, but practice it. keep in mind im not talking about those immature guys who are married and have a girl on the side. polygamy is actively and openly being married to more than 1 woman or visa versa. (havent you ever seen a man walking or driving with two women? they may be together, you never know.)

@smack- im sorry, i dont understand what you’re talking about. What are the pros & cons of polygamy other than the obvious legal ramifications?

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smack_u_silly
Male, Age Private, Vancouver, BC

Posted Jan 19

Texas357
Male, 26, Milwaukee, WI

@crystal- thank you so much for your imformative post. you’re right more sex is definitely not my goal…….the decision is mutual, but of course my wife’s vote counts twice since i’d have 0 wives vs. 2 if i went against her. & yes i do believe in the institution of marriage. people working together to achieve a common goal is a beautiful thing regardless of whether it be a romantic, political or business relationship.

@raven- i appreciate the facts. You’re right about dying early. a woman requires a lot of attention, but i enjoy the challenge. i would die happy if i could spend my life with the people i loved most……there are a lot of polygamous families in the US, but they dont get counted because it’s illegal. either 1 is married or they dont get married at all which is a fast increasing number of families in the US. filing different address is also a common practice. i think a lot of people like myself dont consider themselves polygamist, but practice it. keep in mind im not t
show morealking about those immature guys who are married and have a girl on the side. polygamy is actively and openly being married to more than 1 woman or visa versa. (havent you ever seen a man walking or driving with two women? they may be together, you never know.) @smack- im sorry, i dont understand what you’re talking about. What are the pros & cons of polygamy other than the obvious legal ramifications?
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no pros, as far as i can see.

cons? well, you have to include ‘legal’ because thats a BIG part of it.

another con…most women in those relationships dont work, and thus one man, three people plus kids equal ‘not for me’.

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Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

Posted Jan 19

Cons:

- estate laws which would automatically rollover to the legal spouse and legal children and leaves out the rest of the ‘wives’. Includes home, pension, insurance, social security, etc.

- Hospital visitation rights and medical decisions going to the legal spouse. Other ‘wives’ are left out of that decision.

- liability in divorce courts if one of your non-legal wives leaves you and tries to sue you in court for marriage benefits under the common-law marriage regulation.

- Only one wife can have your legal name. The rest is azz out.

- Your employer benefits recognizes only your legal wife and legal dependents. All your other wives and kids have to cover their own insurance, dental benefits, health benefits, etc, which is super expensive.

- You have to make enough to support your large family. Sure, you MAY (not guaranteed) have three incomes, but instead of scales of economies you will experience diminishing returns. (That means your living expenses are higher.)

- You have to deal with the negative stigma of being a polygamist from society. Society frown upon polygamy–Polygamists are viewed as bigoted, religious freaks, that inbreed. There might be social implications for your children growing up in that kind of environment.

- Wives have to share your affection. I’m selfish and I want ALL my husband’s affection.

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Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

Posted Jan 19

Not to mention that the polygamist husband dies earlier than the monogamous one. No studies on their happiness level, but I do know that happy people live longer. So this suggests that the polygamist husband probably has to deal with more stress and health issues than the monogamous husband. Probably has to put up with PMS and nagging times 2+ wives.

As for pros, don’t really see any that stands out.

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Crystal_Pistol1
Female, 23, Ethiopia

Posted Jan 22

Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

Not to mention that the polygamist husband dies earlier than the monogamous one. No studies on their happiness level, but I do know that happy people live longer. So this suggests that the polygamist husband probably has to deal with more stress and health issues than the monogamous husband. Probably has to put up with PMS and nagging times 2+ wives.

As for pros, don’t really see any that stands out.

and it still also depends on social values, customs, and traditons.

You can’t take what you just said and apply it to non western societies. Now what really stood out in your last post was this

Wives have to share your affection. I’m selfish and I want ALL my husband’s affection

so let me ask you, if your husband broke his commitment to fidelity..isn’t that the same thing? Are you not sharing his affections then?

In polygynist or polyandrist marriages..everyone receives due respect,loyalty,time,love,etc..

My point is the form of marriage isn’t really the issue….many people in monogamous marriages can’t even seem to grasp the whole of marriage…and marriage is not about ‘you’ or ‘i’ or ‘my needs’…it’s about the bigger picture and that is ‘We’, whether it’s monogamous or polygamous.

just my take.

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Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

Posted Jan 22

Crystal_Pistol1
Female, 23, Ethiopia

and it still also depends on social values, customs, and traditons.

You can’t take what you just said and apply it to non western societies. Now what really stood out in your last post was this

Wives have to share your affection. I’m selfish and I want ALL my husband’s affection

so let me ask you, if your husband broke his commitment to fidelity..isn’t that the same thing? Are you not sharing his affections then?

In polygynist or polyandrist marriages..everyone receives due respect,loyalty,time,love,etc..

My point is the form of marriage isn’t really the issue….many people in monogamous marriages can’t even seem to grasp the whole of marriage…and marriage is not about ‘you’ or ‘i’ or ‘my needs’…it’s about the bigger picture and that is ‘We’, whether it’s monogamous or polygamous.

just my take.

Crystal, I really appreciate your perspective, even though I don’t agree with it. With that said:

“You can’t take what you just said and apply it to non western societies.”

We live in a western society and have to live within it’s values, customs, traditions and LAW. While I live here in ole USA, I ain’t going to JAIL for subscribing to marriage arrangements of some non-western tribes.

” Now what really stood out in your last post was this

Wives have to share your affection. I’m selfish and I want ALL my husband’s affection

so let me ask you, if your husband broke his commitment to fidelity..isn’t that the same thing? Are you not sharing his affections then?”

Nope, entirely different. One is sharing affections knowingly and willingly, the other is a result of infidelity and betrayal.

“In polygynist or polyandrist marriages..everyone receives due respect,loyalty,time,love,etc..”

Yah, OK. Tell that to the Supreme Court (and the victimes) who convicted Warren Jeffs in May 2006, leader of a Mormon fundamentalist polygynist sect, for illegal arrangement of marriage of his male followers with underage girsl, sexual misconduct with minors and incest, and accomplice to rape.

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Texas357
Male, 26, Milwaukee, WI

Posted Jan 24

@all- again thank you so much for this discussion. i find it terribly difficult to discuss this matter openly with other intelligent people. i really appreciate it. :)

@raven- that selfishness is exactly what drove me to polygamy. i dont want to be anyones property……the happiness aspect is relative. im happier now in a polygamous relationship than i was in a monogamous relationship. i cant deal with the selfishness……..children can function well in a polygamous relationship. i understood as a child that my mom was my mom and mrs. sanders was someone who loved me and was deserving of the same respect as any adult (no different than step-mom). i never knew there was anything wrong with my dad being alone with another woman; it was normal to me……in addition, i dont know how people could even get caught in a polygamous relationship. it would take someone to report to the police that a couple is having sex and living with another adult, and even then; whats illegal about that?? i dont have any kids, but im confident that the children wont grow up with 2 mommies, but rather with a mom, dad and mommies friend who helps. (something like a live-in nanny who works too)
wills, new insurance policies for non-family members, and prenups keep all the legal matters under control. as far as taking a name. i wouldnt ask any woman i marry to take my name, (thats a dumb tradition in my opinion) however i would like my children to have my last name for legal purposes……..& it is true that women require a lot of attention, thus more work for me, but i think it’s worth it. i like to work for my woman…………….there is nothing like a woman’s love and to have women working as a team to love you is 2x 3x better……….expenses balance themselves out. just imagine 3 people living alone, paying seperate rent and providing for their own expenses. the upside is pooling those resources from 3 people and consolidating expenses; it actually comes out cheaper. the trick is to buy everything in bulk as far as lotion, tampons, hair products etc…the upside is having another woman to do hair. dividing up responsibilities and chores is a plus too

@crystal- the decision is mutual, but my wife’s vote gets counted twice since i’d hav 0 wives vs. 2 if i went against her. lol. plus she’s cuter, everyone likes her better than me anyway. lol

@smack- women work in monogamous relationships as well as polygamous relationships.

@all- I think it takes maturity, confidence, and a real love for a person to be able to share their mate with family, friends or another lover.

Do you think that polygamy should even be illegal? why or why not?

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POLYGAMY Pros & Cons? Please Comment (64) Reply Comments Options
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Texas357
Male, 26, Milwaukee, WI

Posted Jan 24

SenorCafeDa2nd
Male, Age Private, Paterson, NJ

Polygamy goes on every day in every city without the formalities that will land you in jail, If you homie got a steady girl and a girl on the side he in a polygamous relationship, it may be a secretive polygamous relationship but nevertheless its polygamous.

In the black community single available black women outnumber single available black men, are we saying that because there aren’t enough black men to go around that a black woman should be deprived of a relationship, intimacy with a black man. I fully support polygamy in a legal sense, legal polygamy would strengthen the black community.

GROWN MEN ARE HONEST BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE ANYTHING TO HIDE. in order for any relationship to work there has to be communication and honesty. not telling your spouse about another relationship or sexual encounter is a break down in communication.
if you’re excited about meeting someone new or having a great sexual experience and you cant share that joy with your wife, then why is she your wife? a life partner should be someone who you can share everything with without having to feel judged or put down. support is what everyone wants. if a woman cant support your lifestyle than dont waste her/your time marrying her because the relationship will never work. first you have to know yourself before you can tell someone else who you are.

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smack_u_silly
Male, Age Private, Vancouver, BC

Posted Jan 24

Texas357
Male, 26, Milwaukee, WI

@all- again thank you so much for this discussion. i find it terribly difficult to discuss this matter openly with other intelligent people. i really appreciate it. :)

@raven- that selfishness is exactly what drove me to polygamy. i dont want to be anyones property……the happiness aspect is relative. im happier now in a polygamous relationship than i was in a monogamous relationship. i cant deal with the selfishness……..children can function well in a polygamous relationship. i understood as a child that my mom was my mom and mrs. sanders was someone who loved me and was deserving of the same respect as any adult (no different than step-mom). i never knew there was anything wrong with my dad being alone with another woman; it was normal to me……in addition, i dont know how people could even get caught in a polygamous relationship. it would take someone to report to the police that a couple is having sex and living with another adult, and even then; whats illegal about that??
show more i dont have any kids, but im confident that the children wont grow up with 2 mommies, but rather with a mom, dad and mommies friend who helps. (something like a live-in nanny who works too) wills, new insurance policies for non-family members, and prenups keep all the legal matters under control. as far as taking a name. i wouldnt ask any woman i marry to take my name, (thats a dumb tradition in my opinion) however i would like my children to have my last name for legal purposes……..& it is true that women require a lot of attention, thus more work for me, but i think it’s worth it. i like to work for my woman…………….there is nothing like a woman’s love and to have women working as a team to love you is 2x 3x better……….expenses balance themselves out. just imagine 3 people living alone, paying seperate rent and providing for their own expenses. the upside is pooling those resources from 3 people and consolidating expenses; it actually comes out cheaper. the trick is to buy everything in bulk as far as lotion, tampons, hair products etc…the upside is having another woman to do hair. dividing up responsibilities and chores is a plus too @crystal- the decision is mutual, but my wife’s vote gets counted twice since i’d hav 0 wives vs. 2 if i went against her. lol. plus she’s cuter, everyone likes her better than me anyway. lol @smack- women work in monogamous relationships as well as polygamous relationships. @all- I think it takes maturity, confidence, and a real love for a person to be able to share their mate with family, friends or another lover. Do you think that polygamy should even be illegal? why or why not??
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i think it should stay illegal.

as you see the ‘advantages’ of it, i see nothing but disadvantages, and its ripe for abuse (see the folks in utah and other places where the older, more established men drive off the teen aged boys and young men, to limit competition).

as its not for me, and i have nothing to gain by making it legal, i say keep it illegal.

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Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

Posted Jan 25

Texas357
Male, 26, Milwaukee, WI

@all- again thank you so much for this discussion. i find it terribly difficult to discuss this matter openly with other intelligent people. i really appreciate it. :)

@raven- that selfishness is exactly what drove me to polygamy. i dont want to be anyones property……the happiness aspect is relative. im happier now in a polygamous relationship than i was in a monogamous relationship. i cant deal with the selfishness……..children can function well in a polygamous relationship. i understood as a child that my mom was my mom and mrs. sanders was someone who loved me and was deserving of the same respect as any adult (no different than step-mom). i never knew there was anything wrong with my dad being alone with another woman; it was normal to me……in addition, i dont know how people could even get caught in a polygamous relationship. it would take someone to report to the police that a couple is having sex and living with another adult, and even then; whats illegal about that??
show more i dont have any kids, but im confident that the children wont grow up with 2 mommies, but rather with a mom, dad and mommies friend who helps. (something like a live-in nanny who works too) wills, new insurance policies for non-family members, and prenups keep all the legal matters under control. as far as taking a name. i wouldnt ask any woman i marry to take my name, (thats a dumb tradition in my opinion) however i would like my children to have my last name for legal purposes……..& it is true that women require a lot of attention, thus more work for me, but i think it’s worth it. i like to work for my woman…………….there is nothing like a woman’s love and to have women working as a team to love you is 2x 3x better……….expenses balance themselves out. just imagine 3 people living alone, paying seperate rent and providing for their own expenses. the upside is pooling those resources from 3 people and consolidating expenses; it actually comes out cheaper. the trick is to buy everything in bulk as far as lotion, tampons, hair products etc…the upside is having another woman to do hair. dividing up responsibilities and chores is a plus too @crystal- the decision is mutual, but my wife’s vote gets counted twice since i’d hav 0 wives vs. 2 if i went against her. lol. plus she’s cuter, everyone likes her better than me anyway. lol @smack- women work in monogamous relationships as well as polygamous relationships. @all- I think it takes maturity, confidence, and a real love for a person to be able to share their mate with family, friends or another lover. Do you think that polygamy should even be illegal? why or why not??
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“@raven- that selfishness is exactly what drove me to polygamy. i dont want to be anyones property……the happiness aspect is relative. im happier now in a polygamous relationship than i was in a monogamous relationship. i cant deal with the selfishness……..”

Actually, you’re the selfish one. That’s the irony. Your legal wife (if you have one) or your babymommas are the selfless ones. I just hope they are truly happy in this arrangement…othrwise you’ll get a whole lot drama.

“…children can function well in a polygamous relationship. i understood as a child that my mom was my mom and mrs. sanders was someone who loved me and was deserving of the same respect as any adult (no different than step-mom). i never knew there was anything wrong with my dad being alone with another woman; it was normal to me…”

A child raised up in incestual relationship won’t know that it ain’t normal either. Probably even felt ‘loved’ too…until they realize society frowns on those relationships.

“…in addition, i dont know how people could even get caught in a polygamous relationship. it would take someone to report to the police that a couple is having sex and living with another adult, and even then; whats illegal about that?? i dont have any kids, but im confident that the children wont grow up with 2 mommies, but rather with a mom, dad and mommies friend who helps.”

Dude, you’re not caught in illegal polygamy relationship because you don’t have two wives. You just have either 1) one wife and one concubine or 2) two babymommas. So there’s nothing to report to the police.

“wills, new insurance policies for non-family members, and prenups keep all the legal matters under control.”

Most, but not all legal matters are covered. See my above post regarding what a non-legal wife is missing out.

“…as far as taking a name. i wouldnt ask any woman i marry to take my name, (thats a dumb tradition in my opinion)”

But if your concubines WANT your last name, they CAN”T because they ain’t MARRIED to you.

“………expenses balance themselves out. just imagine 3 people living alone, paying seperate rent and providing for their own expenses. the upside is pooling those resources from 3 people and consolidating expenses; it actually comes out cheaper. “

OK, I’ll give you this one. Just know that if they want extended health or dental coverage, they can’t get it covered because they aren’t your legal spouse.

“the trick is to buy everything in bulk as far as lotion, tampons, hair products etc…the upside is having another woman to do hair. dividing up responsibilities and chores is a plus too”

What, as a couple, you can’t buy in bulk? I do my own hair, so having another women do my hair ain’t a perk.

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Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

Posted Jan 25

“Do you think that polygamy should even be illegal? why or why not??”

Yes, it should remain illegal.

1) our society and law supports the couple arrangement. If we change the law, you would have to change the whole system (from taxes to estate laws) to accommodate the extra spouses. That’s a massive effort and requires ALOT of taxpayer’s money to make the change. That’s not even counting the cost that taxpayers and corporations have to bear to MAINTAIN the polygamy arrangement. Now, instead of covering the employment benefits of their employees’ one spouse and dependents, they gotta cover it for all their other spouses. If you have an inkling of how much these benefits cost the corporations, you won’t be surprise if they resist it.

2) It goes against American’s christian values of one-man-one-woman marriage institute. In other words, it’s immoral.

3) It disrupts the natural competition of the marriable market.

4) It’s well known that a divorce is very costly…and that’s only for one wife! If polygamy was legal, and a couple of your wives want divorce, that’s enough to bankrupt you.

5) Polygamy opens up the women and their kids for neglect, abuse, jealousy and abandonment.

6) Gender inequity–Polygamy, the most common being men with multiple wives, benefits men.

So as you can see, it puts society at a huge disadvantage for supporting polygamy just so YOU can be happy.

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Texas357
Male, 26, Milwaukee, WI

Posted Feb 15

@ravenesque- i apologize for not replying sooner……women in polygamous relationships are happier in those relationships as well. i’ve been in only one marriage involving more than 1 wife and both women were happy with the arrangement.
DISRUPTS NATURAL COMPETITION???
who’s competing with who??
there r generally more women than men, leaving a lot of single women.

divorce is the worst thing that could ever happen. i believe in prenups, but other than that trusting my previous common law wives not to sue is a problem i’ve never had. i think women only sue when the guy lies to her or if they never communicated with each other about the subject. i have a good understanding with anyone i get involved with: no police & no lawyers & they’ve always agreed. if i couldnt trust them to uphold that agreement then i wouldnt involve myself with them.

I’m curious……wut do u mean by wanting all of ur husband’s affection?? hypothetically speaking; wouldnt ur husband show his friends, family and children affection? r u really tryin to say u want to control who ur husband shows affection to? do u want ur husband to tell u who u can b affectionate with?

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Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

Posted Feb 28

Texas357
Male, 26, Milwaukee, WI

@ravenesque- i apologize for not replying sooner……women in polygamous relationships are happier in those relationships as well. i’ve been in only one marriage involving more than 1 wife and both women were happy with the arrangement.
DISRUPTS NATURAL COMPETITION???
who’s competing with who??
there r generally more women than men, leaving a lot of single women.

divorce is the worst thing that could ever happen. i believe in prenups, but other than that trusting my previous common law wives not to sue is a problem i’ve never had. i think women only sue when the guy lies to her or if they never communicated with each other about the subject. i have a good understanding with anyone i get involved with: no police & no lawyers & they’ve always agreed. if i couldnt trust them to uphold that agreement then i wouldnt involve myself with them.

I’m curious……wut do u mean by wanting all of ur husband’s affection?? hypothetically speaking; wouldnt ur husband show his friends, family and c
show morehildren affection? r u really tryin to say u want to control who ur husband shows affection to? do u want ur husband to tell u who u can b affectionate with?
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“@ravenesque- i apologize for not replying sooner……women in polygamous relationships are happier in those relationships as well. i’ve been in only one marriage involving more than 1 wife and both women were happy with the arrangement.”

That’s YOUR opinion and your experience. There is no studies out there that proves women in polygamous relationships are happier. That’s just bullshyt you pulled out of your azz to justify your illegal marriages.

“DISRUPTS NATURAL COMPETITION???
who’s competing with who??
there r generally more women than men, leaving a lot of single women.”

It disrupts the supply and demand, hence the competition in the dating market in a society that is built on the marriage of TWO people.

“divorce is the worst thing that could ever happen. i believe in prenups, but other than that trusting my previous common law wives not to sue is a problem i’ve never had. i think women only sue when the guy lies to her or if they never communicated with each other about the subject. i have a good understanding with anyone i get involved with: no police & no lawyers & they’ve always agreed. if i couldnt trust them to uphold that agreement then i wouldnt involve myself with them.”

Smart people cover their azzes legally.

“I’m curious……wut do u mean by wanting all of ur husband’s affection?? hypothetically speaking; wouldnt ur husband show his friends, family and children affection? r u really tryin to say u want to control who ur husband shows affection to? do u want ur husband to tell u who u can b affectionate with? “

Husband-wife affection is NOT the same affection between friends, family members, and children. Your rationale and subsequent question are immature.

One of the major reason why I am opposed to polygamy (other than the many reasons I highlighted above in my posts) is that it reinforces patriarchial power for the man to benefit the man. That is offensive.

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Texas357
Male, 26, Milwaukee, WI

Posted Feb 29

@raven- i appreciate your thoughts and comments. i understand why you feel that way. i guess less available women would be a bad thing, and we definitely don’t need extra competition amongst men.
but
what is the difference in husband-wife affection vs. friends’ affection besides sex?
how does polygamy give more power to the man?

i think there is a way to write a contract expressing that a man and woman are not common law and that either are entitled to alimony. i’m gonna look into it. i mean roomates have to have some kind of legal protection against common law laws; right?.

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Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

Posted Feb 29

Polygamy is an outmoded practice from history when women were nothing but property and not a person in terms of having rights. Just as a man with many cows underlines his financial status, a man with many wives does so too.

Secondly, women are married off as second, third, fourth, twentieth wife are often done not out of love but out of economic and political alliances. In this example, women are used as collateral to a contract. A prime example is King Solomon in the bible.

Thirdly, researchers into polygamy in Turkey believe the practice is a hangover from having many harems to demonstrate the man’s power, sexual prowess and wealth.

Again, women are being used and as property, often abused.

Let me ask you this…as chattel property without rights, what do women get out of this arrangement? NOTHING. Polygamy benefits the man.

I despise this disgusting practice, and any women agreeing to it are backwards.

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Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

Posted Feb 29

“what is the difference in husband-wife affection vs. friends’ affection besides sex?”

Tell me, do you cuddle with your friend, call him/her names of endearment, touch him/her fondly as you would with a spouse?

Greek philosophers at the time of Plato and other ancient authors have differentiate love (“agape”) from love of a spouse or family, or affection for a particular activity, in contrast to “philia”, an affection that could denote either brotherhood or generally non-sexual affection, and “eros”, an affection of a sexual nature.

There is a difference.

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Crystal_Pistol1
Female, 23, Ethiopia

Posted Feb 29

Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

Polygamy is an outmoded practice from history when women were nothing but property and not a person in terms of having rights. Just as a man with many cows underlines his financial status, a man with many wives does so too.

Secondly, women are married off as second, third, fourth, twentieth wife are often done not out of love but out of economic and political alliances. In this example, women are used as collateral to a contract. A prime example is King Solomon in the bible.

Thirdly, researchers into polygamy in Turkey believe the practice is a hangover from having many harems to demonstrate the man’s power, sexual prowess and wealth.

Again, women are being used and as property, often abused.

Let me ask you this…as chattel property without rights, what do women get out of this arrangement? NOTHING. Polygamy benefits the man.

I despise this disgusting practice, and any women agreeing to it are backwards.

“I despise this disgusting practice, and any women agreeing to it are backwards”.

You can only analyze it from the eurocentric worldview. If you want to talk African tradition then that’s different. In the traditional way, polygyny is not decided by the men. It is/was women traditionally who made the decision. Polygyny ensured that a woman’s lineage was continued when women out number men by natural selection. If a man has to be responsible for a family…and polygyny is not about patriarchy, or chattel…this is a Huge responsiblity for a man finacially, emotionally, spiritually, sexually(if you want to go there)..trust me from experience…

he is not benefitting the way you believe he is. Any slip made…and that’s his responsiblity. It’s not the rest of the family who have to keep things in order.

and if people are over emphasizing sex instead of letting it be natural..then the form of marriage has no real substance whether it’s monogamy or polygamy.

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Texas357
Male, 26, Milwaukee, WI

Posted Feb 29

@raven- women still have property rights in a polygamous relationship & like crystal says, women still have all the power; “trust me from experience.” monogamy is 1:1 vote with the woman winning 50% of the time. if you add another woman the vote is 2:1. trust me, women stick together. if i want to watch something on tv, i have to get permission from two women; im always outnumbered.
& remember for me my polygamous relationship goes both ways. my wife just told me last night how she met this guy she really liked and how she could see him moving in. i was happy for her. i love her and because i know what kind of person she is, i trust her to choose the right person. besides if she loves him and he loves her then i love him too. i dont have to have sex, cuddle or kiss him to love him. besides having another guy around would be cool. i would finally have someone to take my side on tv programming. lol

i don’t think you’ve ever seen a nodern polygamous relationship other than what’s on TV. you’re still thinking of polygamy at a time when women didn’t have any rights. in a modern polygamous relationship it’s no different than living with your best girlfriend: you have your things, she has hers, and ya’ll share some things.

loving someone has nothing to do with sex, power or property. love is love. cuddling, kissing, & touching are all forms of sex. i can love someone and marry someone without sex being involved. i love someone because of who they are, not because we have sex. furthermore, i dont characterize relationships based on sex. iv had sex with friends i was attracted to who just remained friends and i havent had sex with friends i was attracted to who just remained friends. i love them all the same. me and my ex-wife are still friends and i plan on us double-dating in the next week. i love her no different than i loved her the day we got married. the difference between a wife and a friend is not sex; me and my wife share things together, like money, food, and household responsibilities. if i lose, she losses and vice versa; thats what makes a marriage, not cuddling and kissing.

@crystal- are you currently in a polygamous relationship or were in a polygamous relationship here in the states??

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Texas357
Male, 26, Milwaukee, WI

Posted Feb 29

@raven- sorry. just to clarify. yes i do cuddle with my friends, kiss them, hug them, and i have terms of endearment for each one of them. i must admit that i dont cuddle or kiss my male friends though, but we do the handshake/hug thing and we all have nicknames for each other. pop, bigdog, kenfolk etc. the girls have girly names like sugaduga & tt.

arent you friends with anyone you’ve had sex with? or friends with someone you’re attracted to, but decided to just remain friends?
and if you’re still friends would you disown them if you got married or got sexually involved with someone else?

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smack_u_silly
Male, Age Private, Vancouver, BC

Posted Feb 29

Crystal_Pistol1
Female, 23, Ethiopia

“I despise this disgusting practice, and any women agreeing to it are backwards”.

You can only analyze it from the eurocentric worldview. If you want to talk African tradition then that’s different. In the traditional way, polygyny is not decided by the men. It is/was women traditionally who made the decision. Polygyny ensured that a woman’s lineage was continued when women out number men by natural selection. If a man has to be responsible for a family…and polygyny is not about patriarchy, or chattel…this is a Huge responsiblity for a man finacially, emotionally, spiritually, sexually(if you want to go there)..trust me from experience…

he is not benefitting the way you believe he is. Any slip made…and that’s his responsiblity. It’s not the rest of the family who have to keep things in order.

and if people are over emphasizing sex instead of letting it be natural..then the form of marriage has no real substance whether it’s monogamy or polygamy.

maybe , maybe not. the ‘afrocentric view’ is simply not worth anything in a eurocentric society that has laws against polygamy.

african americans make up a SMALL minority (14%) that, even if all were on board for polygamy (and the vast majority aren’t) it would mean squat because the overwhelming percentage of this country (86%) are not afro-centric in thought.

if afrocentric values, as a daily thing, are important, then you must live in an afrocentric society who’s laws allow polygamy.

for ME, raven and most other african americans in the united states, no matter what anybody says, there’s no benefit to polygamy in THIS society.

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smack_u_silly
Male, Age Private, Vancouver, BC

Posted Feb 29

Texas357
Male, 26, Milwaukee, WI

@raven- sorry. just to clarify. yes i do cuddle with my friends, kiss them, hug them, and i have terms of endearment for each one of them. i must admit that i dont cuddle or kiss my male friends though, but we do the handshake/hug thing and we all have nicknames for each other. pop, bigdog, kenfolk etc. the girls have girly names like sugaduga & tt.

arent you friends with anyone you’ve had sex with? or friends with someone you’re attracted to, but decided to just remain friends?
and if you’re still friends would you disown them if you got married or got sexually involved with someone else?

“@raven- sorry. just to clarify. yes i do cuddle with my friends, kiss them, hug them, and i have terms of endearment for each one of them. i must admit that i dont cuddle or kiss my male friends though, but we do the handshake/hug thing and we all have nicknames for each other. pop, bigdog, kenfolk etc. the girls have girly names like sugaduga & tt.”

i see this forum is still going strong. i’ll answer, as a man, for raven since i see this question.

no, i don’t ‘cuddle’ with my woman friends, be they ‘friends’ or ‘exgirlfriends’. hug when they initiate, but no wrap around. i’m not a hugger and kisser of people not in my family and who isnt my wife.

i don’t like ‘the man hug’, and rarely do it. i do the soul shake, and have very few nicknames for them. that’s me, though.

“arent you friends with anyone you’ve had sex with? “

i’m friends with ex girlfriends, but as i have a wife, there’s a certain amount of respectful distance they give me, as i give them. no need to be hugging/kissing my ex girlfriends.

“or friends with someone you’re attracted to, but decided to just remain friends?”

as i’m married , i’m not attracted to other women…i got MY ideal lady. i gotta think that if raven has a man, she’d follow a similar path.

“and if you’re still friends would you disown them if you got married or got sexually involved with someone else? “

there’s a difference between ‘not hugging’, ‘not kissing’, ‘not cuddling’ with my ex’s and ‘disowning’ them.

there’s simply no place in american society (at least for the VAST MAJORITY of people and black folks) for a polygamous relationship. no amount of justification from the few proponents of polygamy will sway the majority to legalize it.

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bodyguard12
Male, 35, Philadelphia, PA

Posted Feb 29

Crystal_Pistol1
Female, 23, Ethiopia

In response to the question posed.

There are two forms of polygamy: Polyandry is the practice of a woman having more than husband.
Polygyny is the practice of a man having more than one wife.

Now let’s discuss.

Polygyny in the traditonal sense does not benefit the husband in the way that a ‘western’ mindest would believe. The benefits for the brother is that he has a larger family to continue his name once he has made the transition. Polygyny in it’s traditonal sense was designed to uplift the sisters. It ensured that no woman would go without the covering of a man in societies that had more women and that each woman would have a child…which is very important. It was also common amongst Matriarchal and Matrilineal socities b/c it is/was the women who control polygyny and how many sister wives there should be to a family.

Is it about a man having more sexual partners. No. It is a responsibilty and a man has to balance himself fairly amongst the sister or his family. why? Because
show moreit’s not up to him to go get another wife. It’s the wives/wife already involved who make that decision. My grandfather was a polygynist when he was alive. He didn’t have a bunch of wives but he had two. Actually in my family we practice both forms of marriage. some of my family members are monogamous and some are polygamous. It can work if the people involved go into it with the right approach and heart. With that said…not everyone can be a polygynist and for most it will be monogamy….but just to shatter some common myths though.
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in some ways i agree but in some i dont. biblically in no way did a woman decide if her husband could marry another. that would give her authority over a man in that and that goes against the bible (1st Corinthians 11:8 ; 1st Tim 2:12) secondly a man having more than one wife was to speedily bring forth the nation of Israel and that was never done away with. With the knowledge of the Lord any man can have more than one wife if he so chooses.

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Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

Posted Mar 1

Crystal_Pistol1
Female, 23, Ethiopia

“I despise this disgusting practice, and any women agreeing to it are backwards”.

You can only analyze it from the eurocentric worldview. If you want to talk African tradition then that’s different. In the traditional way, polygyny is not decided by the men. It is/was women traditionally who made the decision. Polygyny ensured that a woman’s lineage was continued when women out number men by natural selection. If a man has to be responsible for a family…and polygyny is not about patriarchy, or chattel…this is a Huge responsiblity for a man finacially, emotionally, spiritually, sexually(if you want to go there)..trust me from experience…

he is not benefitting the way you believe he is. Any slip made…and that’s his responsiblity. It’s not the rest of the family who have to keep things in order.

and if people are over emphasizing sex instead of letting it be natural..then the form of marriage has no real substance whether it’s monogamy or polygamy.

“You can only analyze it from the eurocentric worldview. If you want to talk African tradition then that’s different.”

No, it’s not. Polygyny is practiced in various of countries in history (i.e. classical China, Africa, India, Classical Greece). What’s common in those countries that allow polygyny to flourish or be accepted? Here’s my observation:

1) Is the Country/Society patriarchal? YES!
2) Are women viewed as slaves (cheap labor), property and have no rights? YES!

And when I say any women agreeing to this arrangement [voluntarily] are backwards, sure enough, you come running in here pointing to traditional African women. You proved my point! Tribal African women were ignorant and backwards! (through no fault of their own. They were brought up that way to be suppressed.)

“In the traditional way, polygyny is not decided by the men. It is/was women traditionally who made the decision. Polygyny ensured that a woman’s lineage was continued when women out number men by natural selection. If a man has to be responsible for a family…and polygyny is not about patriarchy, or chattel…this is a Huge responsiblity for a man finacially, emotionally, spiritually, sexually(if you want to go there)..trust me from experience…”

You’re talking about a society that practiced female genital mutilation! And you tell me women have the power to make decision about whom their husband marry? Yah right! This from a culture that does not permit women to refuse sex because it is viewed as their duty to please their men? You know why girls got their wagina sewed up?–to preserve their virginity and protect their BRIDE PRICE price. So YES, polygyny was very much about partriarchy, slavery (as in cheap labor), and chattel.

“and if people are over emphasizing sex instead of letting it be natural..then the form of marriage has no real substance whether it’s monogamy or polygamy.”

Since you like to talk African tradition and sex being natural, polygyny was practiced in cultures that also practiced female circumcision/mutilation. If they were so concerned about natural sex, why do this to women?

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Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

Posted Mar 1

Texas357
Male, 26, Milwaukee, WI

@raven- women still have property rights in a polygamous relationship & like crystal says, women still have all the power; “trust me from experience.” monogamy is 1:1 vote with the woman winning 50% of the time. if you add another woman the vote is 2:1. trust me, women stick together. if i want to watch something on tv, i have to get permission from two women; im always outnumbered.
& remember for me my polygamous relationship goes both ways. my wife just told me last night how she met this guy she really liked and how she could see him moving in. i was happy for her. i love her and because i know what kind of person she is, i trust her to choose the right person. besides if she loves him and he loves her then i love him too. i dont have to have sex, cuddle or kiss him to love him. besides having another guy around would be cool. i would finally have someone to take my side on tv programming. lol

i don’t think you’ve ever seen a nodern polygamous relationship other than what’s on TV.
show moreyou’re still thinking of polygamy at a time when women didn’t have any rights. in a modern polygamous relationship it’s no different than living with your best girlfriend: you have your things, she has hers, and ya’ll share some things. loving someone has nothing to do with sex, power or property. love is love. cuddling, kissing, & touching are all forms of sex. i can love someone and marry someone without sex being involved. i love someone because of who they are, not because we have sex. furthermore, i dont characterize relationships based on sex. iv had sex with friends i was attracted to who just remained friends and i havent had sex with friends i was attracted to who just remained friends. i love them all the same. me and my ex-wife are still friends and i plan on us double-dating in the next week. i love her no different than i loved her the day we got married. the difference between a wife and a friend is not sex; me and my wife share things together, like money, food, and household responsibilities. if i lose, she losses and vice versa; thats what makes a marriage, not cuddling and kissing. @crystal- are you currently in a polygamous relationship or were in a polygamous relationship here in the states??
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“@raven- women still have property rights in a polygamous relationship & like crystal says, women still have all the power; “trust me from experience.” monogamy is 1:1 vote with the woman winning 50% of the time. if you add another woman the vote is 2:1. trust me, women stick together. if i want to watch something on tv, i have to get permission from two women; im always outnumbered.
& remember for me my polygamous relationship goes both ways. my wife just told me last night how she met this guy she really liked and how she could see him moving in. i was happy for her. i love her and because i know what kind of person she is, i trust her to choose the right person. besides if she loves him and he loves her then i love him too. i dont have to have sex, cuddle or kiss him to love him. besides having another guy around would be cool. i would finally have someone to take my side on tv programming. lol”

Not to let you down, but NO, I don’t trust you. And I wish you didn’t reveal this–now I have a vision of you, your wives, their lovers in a group orgy soaking in a cesspool of STDs. (shudders) Eeewww.

“i don’t think you’ve ever seen a nodern polygamous relationship other than what’s on TV. you’re still thinking of polygamy at a time when women didn’t have any rights. in a modern polygamous relationship it’s no different than living with your best girlfriend: you have your things, she has hers, and ya’ll share some things.”

Actually, I’ve seen modern polygamous relationships–those breakaway lily-white Mormon sects who live in Bumfucc, Utah, whose wives and children do hard farm labor, whose very patriarchal structure gives power to the men, who then abuse their wives and rape their children/cousins/nieces, push out the young boys, and arranged forced marriages of underaged girls to old men in the community. Not so coincidently, due to the lower position of women, they are ignorant and backwards! All this happening in the modern wonderful world of America. That’s modern polygamous relationship for you.

“loving someone has nothing to do with sex, power or property. love is love. cuddling, kissing, & touching are all forms of sex. i can love someone and marry someone without sex being involved. i love someone because of who they are, not because we have sex. furthermore, i dont characterize relationships based on sex. iv had sex with friends i was attracted to who just remained friends and i havent had sex with friends i was attracted to who just remained friends. i love them all the same. me and my ex-wife are still friends and i plan on us double-dating in the next week. i love her no different than i loved her the day we got married. the difference between a wife and a friend is not sex; me and my wife share things together, like money, food, and household responsibilities. if i lose, she losses and vice versa; thats what makes a marriage, not cuddling and kissing.

Like I said, I have a mental image of a cesspool of STDs.

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Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

Posted Mar 1

smack_u_silly
Male, Age Private, Vancouver, BC

“@raven- sorry. just to clarify. yes i do cuddle with my friends, kiss them, hug them, and i have terms of endearment for each one of them. i must admit that i dont cuddle or kiss my male friends though, but we do the handshake/hug thing and we all have nicknames for each other. pop, bigdog, kenfolk etc. the girls have girly names like sugaduga & tt.”

i see this forum is still going strong. i’ll answer, as a man, for raven since i see this question.

no, i don’t ‘cuddle’ with my woman friends, be they ‘friends’ or ‘exgirlfriends’. hug when they initiate, but no wrap around. i’m not a hugger and kisser of people not in my family and who isnt my wife.

i don’t like ‘the man hug’, and rarely do it. i do the soul shake, and have very few nicknames for them. that’s me, though.

“arent you friends with anyone you’ve had sex with? “

i’m friends with ex girlfriends, but as i have a wife, there’s a certain amount of respectful distance they give me, as i give them. no need to be huggi
show moreng/kissing my ex girlfriends. “or friends with someone you’re attracted to, but decided to just remain friends?” as i’m married , i’m not attracted to other women…i got MY ideal lady. i gotta think that if raven has a man, she’d follow a similar path. “and if you’re still friends would you disown them if you got married or got sexually involved with someone else? ” there’s a difference between ‘not hugging’, ‘not kissing’, ‘not cuddling’ with my ex’s and ‘disowning’ them. there’s simply no place in american society (at least for the VAST MAJORITY of people and black folks) for a polygamous relationship. no amount of justification from the few proponents of polygamy will sway the majority to legalize it.
show less

A strange fellow this Texan357 guy. He reminds me of those free-loving hippies in the 70s who were all about free love.

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Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

Posted Mar 1

Texas357
Male, 26, Milwaukee, WI

@raven- sorry. just to clarify. yes i do cuddle with my friends, kiss them, hug them, and i have terms of endearment for each one of them. i must admit that i dont cuddle or kiss my male friends though, but we do the handshake/hug thing and we all have nicknames for each other. pop, bigdog, kenfolk etc. the girls have girly names like sugaduga & tt.

arent you friends with anyone you’ve had sex with? or friends with someone you’re attracted to, but decided to just remain friends?
and if you’re still friends would you disown them if you got married or got sexually involved with someone else?

“arent you friends with anyone you’ve had sex with?”

Nope. I have no contact with any sex-ex except one, but he has since faded to acquaintance status–didn’t even get the invite to my wedding or the announcement post-wedding.

” or friends with someone you’re attracted to, but decided to just remain friends?”

Why would I stay friends with a guy I was attracted to? To hold out hope that I would get together with him and dump my hubby? I ain’t trifling.

“and if you’re still friends would you disown them if you got married or got sexually involved with someone else? “

This question is not applicable to me since I did not remain friends with them.

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Texas357
Male, 26, Milwaukee, WI

Posted Mar 4

@raven- i had a good laugh with this 1. lol….i understand how you feel. you and i are just different. my feelings remain the same for people whether i’m married or not. i love everyone the same, whether i’m attracted to them or not. i dont marry someone because im attracted to them, i marry them because they better me emotionally, spiritually, financially etc. etc. Every relationship is different, and i value relationships based on what the person has given me; tangibles/intangibles. a lot of people have been good to me in my life and i could never cast them aside for anything; that would be a slap in the face to someone who has given me so much.
and the whole std thing…Remember polygamy has nothing to do with sex. at some point you had to make the decision to have sex with your husband, right?. what things do you consider before having sex with someone??
if you and your husband went to get tested before you had sex then i applaud you, but most people just use their better judgement and have safe sex (at least the first time). i assume you trust your husband’s better judgement since he had sex with you and vice versa. If you didnt trust your husband to have responsible sex and have sex with people he thought were responsible, then how could you have sex with him the first time?? (unless he was a virgin of course)
if your husband was smart enough to have sex with you, then what makes you think you or him couldnt be smart enough to have sex with someone else? sex is a risk, but it is worth it if you love someone, not just sleeping around.
if a married man falls in love with another woman, what should he do???

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Crystal_Pistol1
Female, 23, Ethiopia

Posted Mar 4

bodyguard12
Male, 35, Philadelphia, PA

in some ways i agree but in some i dont. biblically in no way did a woman decide if her husband could marry another. that would give her authority over a man in that and that goes against the bible (1st Corinthians 11:8 ; 1st Tim 2:12) secondly a man having more than one wife was to speedily bring forth the nation of Israel and that was never done away with. With the knowledge of the Lord any man can have more than one wife if he so chooses.

i’m not Christain….

and even if i were i would agree with polygyny over concubinage anyday. in concubinage the women have no rights. Lots of Orthodox have a recognized wife..but hides another woman and their children from the public. If she’s your woman…why hide her. Hypocrisy.

Btw….polygyny was blessed by god in the OT if you read it, and in the NT Yeshua didn’t ban it…he only regulated.

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Crystal_Pistol1
Female, 23, Ethiopia

Posted Mar 4

Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

“You can only analyze it from the eurocentric worldview. If you want to talk African tradition then that’s different.”

No, it’s not. Polygyny is practiced in various of countries in history (i.e. classical China, Africa, India, Classical Greece). What’s common in those countries that allow polygyny to flourish or be accepted? Here’s my observation:

1) Is the Country/Society patriarchal? YES!
2) Are women viewed as slaves (cheap labor), property and have no rights? YES!

And when I say any women agreeing to this arrangement [voluntarily] are backwards, sure enough, you come running in here pointing to traditional African women. You proved my point! Tribal African women were ignorant and backwards! (through no fault of their own. They were brought up that way to be suppressed.)

“In the traditional way, polygyny is not decided by the men. It is/was women traditionally who made the decision. Polygyny ensured that a woman’s lineage was continued when women out number men by
show morenatural selection. If a man has to be responsible for a family…and polygyny is not about patriarchy, or chattel…this is a Huge responsiblity for a man finacially, emotionally, spiritually, sexually(if you want to go there)..trust me from experience…” You’re talking about a society that practiced female genital mutilation! And you tell me women have the power to make decision about whom their husband marry? Yah right! This from a culture that does not permit women to refuse sex because it is viewed as their duty to please their men? You know why girls got their wagina sewed up?–to preserve their virginity and protect their BRIDE PRICE price. So YES, polygyny was very much about partriarchy, slavery (as in cheap labor), and chattel. “and if people are over emphasizing sex instead of letting it be natural..then the form of marriage has no real substance whether it’s monogamy or polygamy.” Since you like to talk African tradition and sex being natural, polygyny was practiced in cultures that also practiced female circumcision/mutilation. If they were so concerned about natural sex, why do this to women?
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And you’re mad b/c?

Polygyny has nothing to do with FGM. That sickness was brought by Islam…Islamic and Arab cultures suppress a woman’s sexuality b/c they fear it. African Muslims who practice that are no different than African American Christians who cheat, and beat their wives.

If a woman is choosing a traditional form of marriage….how is that then chattel and a piece of property? Polygyny was designed…or any other form like Polyandry(women with multiple husbands) to promote healthy human sexual relations.

Which is better when the case of natural selection makes monogamy not possible for everybody..

A.) Lots of single women in a given society go around sleeping with different men to fulfill biological urges..or she could marry into a loving polygynous family where she has equal rights to the husband and the same priveliges. Or she could remain single and end up with HIV/AIDS for having slept around with different men.
B.)Lots of single men in a given society go around sleeping with different women to fulfill biological urges..or he could marry into a loving polyandrous family where he has equal rights to the wife and the same privliges. Or he could remain single and end up with HIV/AIDS for having slept around with different women.

since you mentioned mormons…. even ineir community women have rights and are choosing polygyny or not. Islam and Christianty have twisted good meaningul traditions. Or a woman could always be a concubine…where she doesn’t have an ounce of a rights

nobody is asking you to be a polygamist…so why the hostility? Even in the US almost 60,000 people live in polygamous relationships whether legal or not. One thing pple have to face is that even in America family forms are changing whether the masses agree, participate, despise or not.

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Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

Posted Mar 5

Texas357
Male, 26, Milwaukee, WI

@raven- i had a good laugh with this 1. lol….i understand how you feel. you and i are just different. my feelings remain the same for people whether i’m married or not. i love everyone the same, whether i’m attracted to them or not. i dont marry someone because im attracted to them, i marry them because they better me emotionally, spiritually, financially etc. etc. Every relationship is different, and i value relationships based on what the person has given me; tangibles/intangibles. a lot of people have been good to me in my life and i could never cast them aside for anything; that would be a slap in the face to someone who has given me so much.
and the whole std thing…Remember polygamy has nothing to do with sex. at some point you had to make the decision to have sex with your husband, right?. what things do you consider before having sex with someone??
if you and your husband went to get tested before you had sex then i applaud you, but most people just use their better judgeme
show morent and have safe sex (at least the first time). i assume you trust your husband’s better judgement since he had sex with you and vice versa. If you didnt trust your husband to have responsible sex and have sex with people he thought were responsible, then how could you have sex with him the first time?? (unless he was a virgin of course) if your husband was smart enough to have sex with you, then what makes you think you or him couldnt be smart enough to have sex with someone else? sex is a risk, but it is worth it if you love someone, not just sleeping around. if a married man falls in love with another woman, what should he do???
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“my feelings remain the same for people whether i’m married or not. i love everyone the same, whether i’m attracted to them or not. i dont marry someone because im attracted to them, i marry them because they better me emotionally, spiritually, financially etc. etc. Every relationship is different, and i value relationships based on what the person has given me; tangibles/intangibles. a lot of people have been good to me in my life and i could never cast them aside for anything; that would be a slap in the face to someone who has given me so much.”

I don’t see how your fluffy fuzzy feelings contribute to the pro-polygamy debate. In fact, you relied on emotional appeal to support your pro-polygamy position, and made baseless unprovable statements like “women are much happier in polygamous relationships”. But that’s your opinion and your experience, so be it.

“and the whole std thing…Remember polygamy has nothing to do with sex.

What?

“at some point you had to make the decision to have sex with your husband, right?. what things do you consider before having sex with someone??
if you and your husband went to get tested before you had sex then i applaud you, but most people just use their better judgement and have safe sex (at least the first time). i assume you trust your husband’s better judgement since he had sex with you and vice versa. If you didnt trust your husband to have responsible sex and have sex with people he thought were responsible, then how could you have sex with him the first time?? (unless he was a virgin of course)
if your husband was smart enough to have sex with you, then what makes you think you or him couldnt be smart enough to have sex with someone else? sex is a risk, but it is worth it if you love someone, not just sleeping around. “

What is this nonsense? You sound so naive. I required my husband to get his medical checked to ensure he didn’t contracted anything. I may trust him to responsible, but I don’t trust the ladies he was with to be responsible.

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Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

Posted Mar 5

Crystal_Pistol1
Female, 23, Ethiopia

i’m not Christain….

and even if i were i would agree with polygyny over concubinage anyday. in concubinage the women have no rights. Lots of Orthodox have a recognized wife..but hides another woman and their children from the public. If she’s your woman…why hide her. Hypocrisy.

Btw….polygyny was blessed by god in the OT if you read it, and in the NT Yeshua didn’t ban it…he only regulated.

Secular law does not recognize polygamy, so any rights as a wife (except the official one) are not recognized. I don’t know why you keep insisting they do when it’s not true.

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Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

Posted Mar 5

Crystal_Pistol1
Female, 23, Ethiopia

And you’re mad b/c?

Polygyny has nothing to do with FGM. That sickness was brought by Islam…Islamic and Arab cultures suppress a woman’s sexuality b/c they fear it. African Muslims who practice that are no different than African American Christians who cheat, and beat their wives.

If a woman is choosing a traditional form of marriage….how is that then chattel and a piece of property? Polygyny was designed…or any other form like Polyandry(women with multiple husbands) to promote healthy human sexual relations.

Which is better when the case of natural selection makes monogamy not possible for everybody..

A.) Lots of single women in a given society go around sleeping with different men to fulfill biological urges..or she could marry into a loving polygynous family where she has equal rights to the husband and the same priveliges. Or she could remain single and end up with HIV/AIDS for having slept around with different men.
B.)Lots of single men in a given society go around sl
show moreeeping with different women to fulfill biological urges..or he could marry into a loving polyandrous family where he has equal rights to the wife and the same privliges. Or he could remain single and end up with HIV/AIDS for having slept around with different women. since you mentioned mormons…. even ineir community women have rights and are choosing polygyny or not. Islam and Christianty have twisted good meaningul traditions. Or a woman could always be a concubine…where she doesn’t have an ounce of a rights nobody is asking you to be a polygamist…so why the hostility? Even in the US almost 60,000 people live in polygamous relationships whether legal or not. One thing pple have to face is that even in America family forms are changing whether the masses agree, participate, despise or not.
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“Polygyny has nothing to do with FGM. That sickness was brought by Islam…Islamic and Arab cultures suppress a woman’s sexuality b/c they fear it. African Muslims who practice that are no different than African American Christians who cheat, and beat their wives.”

My highlighting polygyny being practiced in cultures who also practice FGM is to prove that it is practiced in countries/culture that are patriarchal. Patriarchal countries/cultures suppress their women and limits their freedom/rights. Therefore, it supports my arguments that polygyny is a family structure that degrades women. Hence my example of the Mormon polygamy and your example of Islamic polygyny.

“If a woman is choosing a traditional form of marriage….how is that then chattel and a piece of property? Polygyny was designed…or any other form like Polyandry(women with multiple husbands) to promote healthy human sexual relations.”

This “traditional” form of marriage is currently not legal and when it was practiced in history, it was during times where women were regarded as property, not a person with rights. If the woman chooses to enter into an informal undercover polygamy relationship in our modern time, fine. But her rights as a legal spouse is not recognized unless she is the legal spouse.

As for healthy sexual relations, that’s a piece of shyt you just pulled out of your azz. Where’s your authoritive source that says polygyny was created to promote healthy human sexual relations?! And didn’t Texas123 just say it wasn’t about sex? You guys need to get your information consistent with each other. If it’s just about healthy sexual relations, what about other alternatives like concubinage or prostitution?–don’t they foster healthy sexual relationships too? Your baseless statement also implies that monogamous sexual relations are not healthy.

“A.) Lots of single women in a given society go around sleeping with different men to fulfill biological urges..or she could marry into a loving polygynous family where she has equal rights to the husband and the same priveliges. Or she could remain single and end up with HIV/AIDS for having slept around with different men.”

OR she could marry into a loving monogamous relationship that is recognized under the law, where she has spousal rights equal to the husband. OR she can enter into common-law marriage, also recognized by some states, where she has spousal rights equal to the husband. OR she can choose to remain single and have one or two committed friends with benefits. Her catching HIV/AIDS have nothing to do with her choice of marriage structure or multi-relationships–she can catch HIV/AIDs from her husband.

“B.)Lots of single men in a given society go around sleeping with different women to fulfill biological urges..or he could marry into a loving polyandrous family where he has equal rights to the wife and the same privliges. Or he could remain single and end up with HIV/AIDS for having slept around with different women.”

See my answer above, but vice versa.

“since you mentioned mormons…. even ineir community women have rights and are choosing polygyny or not. Islam and Christianty have twisted good meaningul traditions. Or a woman could always be a concubine…where she doesn’t have an ounce of a rights “

Another bullshyt you pulled out of your azz. That is simply not true. Who cares what ‘rights’ these Mormon wives supposedly have in their little community–these spousal rights are NOT recognized under the US legislation because the law does not recognize their polygamy relationships. Parts of the US even criminalize their polygamous lifestyle, meaning when enforced, they could go to jail. Like Warren Jeff. Their little community ‘laws’ are not above the US law.

“nobody is asking you to be a polygamist…so why the hostility? Even in the US almost 60,000 people live in polygamous relationships whether legal or not. One thing pple have to face is that even in America family forms are changing whether the masses agree, participate, despise or not.”

Just because I called you on your bullshyt, does not mean I am hostile. People can choose to live their lives however they see fit, so long as it is not against the law. But I still hold the opinion that polygamy is degrading to women, inefficient, illegal, expensive, etc, etc, and women who agree to it are backwards. I’ve backed up my arguments. Have you?

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smack_u_silly
Male, Age Private, Vancouver, BC

Posted Mar 5

the link between IGNORANCE, fgm , polygnyn and the ‘trading’ of women:

http://iwraw.igc.org/publications/countries/burkina.htm :

“Traditional practices of the Mossi, Burkina Faso’s largest ethnic group, perpetuate the inferiority of women in Burkinabe society. These traditions include pogsyure, an intricate series of practices in which the male side of families and lineages negotiate the marriage, exchange and circulation of women. Referred to as the “capitalization of women as a means of power, the practice of pogsyure has been compared to the slave trade, in which women, who hold the power to reproduce, are managed like a scarce resource. [15]

Polygyny also continues to be practiced. According to the 1985 census, 20 percent of married men had two wives, seven percent had three wives, and three percent had four or more. A reflection of economic means, in which “the accumulation of women or servants. . . is an accumulation of forces of production,” instances of polygamy become more frequent as men age and accumulate wealth. Polygyny is more widespread in rural than urban areas. [16]

Female genital mutilation (FGM) is practiced by most ethnic groups in Burkina Faso. The most often cited reasons for performing the operation is preventing sexual promiscuity, and the belief that if a child touches his or her mother’s clitoris upon being born, he or she will soon die (also see under Article 12). [17] “

so you can see…get them young (average age of a bride is 17, average age for the groom 27), get them MUTILATED, PAY for them, the practice of polygyny and FGM.

its a link.

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smack_u_silly
Male, Age Private, Vancouver, BC

Posted Mar 5

yet another link between polygyny, FGM, ignorance and the second class status of women that live in this idiocy:

http://www.popcouncil.org/pdfs/briefingsheets/MALI.pdf

“Mali has one of the most severe crises of child marriage in the
world today. The legal age of marriage is 18 for girls and 21 for boys, but
girls may be married as early as age 15 with parental consent For civil
marriages, the law dictates that prospective spouses discuss and agree
on whether their union will be polygynous or monogamous; however, a
woman’s say in the matter is minimal given her limited options, and
most women have only a religious marriage performed. Furthermore,
most women in this overwhelmingly Muslim country accept polygyny as
a practice sanctioned by Islam, which permits a man to have up to four
wives. The payment of bride price is recognized by law,18 promoting the
perception that wives are the property of husbands.

In addition, female
genital circumcision affects nearly all Malian women (92 percent), with
61 percent of circumcisions occurring before age 5.19
A high prevalence of child marriage exists
Nationwide, 25 percent of girls were married by age 15, and nearly
two-thirds of girls were married by age 18.20
Child marriage is extremely prevalent in some regions; in Kayes,
39 percent of girls were married by age 15, and 83 percent were
married by age 18.

Although the practice of polygyny is decreasing in Mali, 22 percent
of married girls aged 15–19 are in polygynous marriages.22
Married girls receive little or no schooling
Eighty-six percent of married girls have received no education, compared
to 62 percent of unmarried girls.23
More than nine out of ten married girls aged 15–19 cannot read
at all.

Large spousal age differences are common and may
limit married girls’ autonomy and decisionmaking ability
The younger a bride is, the greater the age difference between her
and her spouse. In Mali, the mean age difference between spouses is
12.7 years if the wife marries before age 15 compared to 9.9 years if
the wife marries at or after age 20.

Spousal age differences are even greater when the girl is a second
or third wife. In polygynous marriages, the mean age difference
between spouses is 15.1 years, compared to 9.9 years in monogamous
marriages.

First births have elevated risks; the youngest first-time
mothers and their children are especially vulnerable to poor
health outcomes.

A weak health infrastructure makes it difficult for mothers to receive
adequate care. In rural areas, where the majority of Malians live,
85 percent of girls and women live at least 30 kilometers away from
over”

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Crystal_Pistol1
Female, 23, Ethiopia

Posted Mar 5

Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

“Polygyny has nothing to do with FGM. That sickness was brought by Islam…Islamic and Arab cultures suppress a woman’s sexuality b/c they fear it. African Muslims who practice that are no different than African American Christians who cheat, and beat their wives.”

My highlighting polygyny being practiced in cultures who also practice FGM is to prove that it is practiced in countries/culture that are patriarchal. Patriarchal countries/cultures suppress their women and limits their freedom/rights. Therefore, it supports my arguments that polygyny is a family structure that degrades women. Hence my example of the Mormon polygamy and your example of Islamic polygyny.

“If a woman is choosing a traditional form of marriage….how is that then chattel and a piece of property? Polygyny was designed…or any other form like Polyandry(women with multiple husbands) to promote healthy human sexual relations.”

This “traditional” form of marriage is currently not legal and when i
show moret was practiced in history, it was during times where women were regarded as property, not a person with rights. If the woman chooses to enter into an informal undercover polygamy relationship in our modern time, fine. But her rights as a legal spouse is not recognized unless she is the legal spouse. As for healthy sexual relations, that’s a piece of shyt you just pulled out of your azz. Where’s your authoritive source that says polygyny was created to promote healthy human sexual relations?! And didn’t Texas123 just say it wasn’t about sex? You guys need to get your information consistent with each other. If it’s just about healthy sexual relations, what about other alternatives like concubinage or prostitution?–don’t they foster healthy sexual relationships too? Your baseless statement also implies that monogamous sexual relations are not healthy. “A.) Lots of single women in a given society go around sleeping with different men to fulfill biological urges..or she could marry into a loving polygynous family where she has equal rights to the husband and the same priveliges. Or she could remain single and end up with HIV/AIDS for having slept around with different men.” OR she could marry into a loving monogamous relationship that is recognized under the law, where she has spousal rights equal to the husband. OR she can enter into common-law marriage, also recognized by some states, where she has spousal rights equal to the husband. OR she can choose to remain single and have one or two committed friends with benefits. Her catching HIV/AIDS have nothing to do with her choice of marriage structure or multi-relationships–she can catch HIV/AIDs from her husband. “B.)Lots of single men in a given society go around sleeping with different women to fulfill biological urges..or he could marry into a loving polyandrous family where he has equal rights to the wife and the same privliges. Or he could remain single and end up with HIV/AIDS for having slept around with different women.” See my answer above, but vice versa. “since you mentioned mormons…. even ineir community women have rights and are choosing polygyny or not. Islam and Christianty have twisted good meaningul traditions. Or a woman could always be a concubine…where she doesn’t have an ounce of a rights ” Another bullshyt you pulled out of your azz. That is simply not true. Who cares what ‘rights’ these Mormon wives supposedly have in their little community–these spousal rights are NOT recognized under the US legislation because the law does not recognize their polygamy relationships. Parts of the US even criminalize their polygamous lifestyle, meaning when enforced, they could go to jail. Like Warren Jeff. Their little community ‘laws’ are not above the US law. “nobody is asking you to be a polygamist…so why the hostility? Even in the US almost 60,000 people live in polygamous relationships whether legal or not. One thing pple have to face is that even in America family forms are changing whether the masses agree, participate, despise or not.” Just because I called you on your bullshyt, does not mean I am hostile. People can choose to live their lives however they see fit, so long as it is not against the law. But I still hold the opinion that polygamy is degrading to women, inefficient, illegal, expensive, etc, etc, and women who agree to it are backwards. I’ve backed up my arguments. Have you?
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what i still can’t figure out about you is that why you think, feel etc…that someone will be more apt to agree/listen to you by being hostile and profanity…it’s not even that serious,lol.

you can pull up info about ‘western’ idealogy to prove your opinion…but it won’t change what’s been a part of African traditions since ancient times.

You want sources…fine i’ll give you sources..

1. Spiritual Guide to an Afrocentric Union…RaUn Nefer Amen

2. Polygamy: A Furturistic Family Arrangement for African Americans…Joseph Scott

3. Africana Wonamism:Reclaiming Ourselves…Clenora Hudson Weems

4. Delores P. Aldridge…has good works out about positive family forms other than monogamy.

FGM…has no place in African traditions. It was Arab culture that brought that. It’s a sick practice to suppress women’s sexuality that has nothing to do with polygyny. Monogamy and polygamy are forms of marriages that i respect and regard and neither of them is better or less than the other.

You said i degrading sex in monogamy. Prove it? I said polygyny was/is a traditional way in solving an age old problem. when men outnumber women in a society b/c of war and natural selection. It is for practicality a way that each woman in a given society could have the rights to marriage, healthy sexual relationships, and child bearing to carrry on her name.

Christainity in the OTpermits men to have more than one wife. The NT regulates it but does not ban it. It has only been in recent history that christianity changed and rearranged books of the Bible and more importantly that the christain church has criminalized it. Ever heard of the Confrence of Nicea?

Islam..however under the Q’uran permits a man to have no more than four wives…and the only reason is b/c of war and so that the children of widows will not be orphans. That’s the only way in Islam that’s valid. Again Arabs mix theirculture with their religion and create a mess in which the family structure is unjust to women. Again that’s Arab culture not African.

It’s not comparable to say the least nor of whether it’s legal or should be. People are doing in the U.S. whether Ravenesque is pleased with it, despised by, thinks it should be illegal, hostile about it or what have you. Any questions for Texas..should take up with him not me.

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smack_u_silly
Male, Age Private, Vancouver, BC

Posted Mar 5

Crystal_Pistol1
Female, 23, Ethiopia

what i still can’t figure out about you is that why you think, feel etc…that someone will be more apt to agree/listen to you by being hostile and profanity…it’s not even that serious,lol.

you can pull up info about ‘western’ idealogy to prove your opinion…but it won’t change what’s been a part of African traditions since ancient times.

You want sources…fine i’ll give you sources..

1. Spiritual Guide to an Afrocentric Union…RaUn Nefer Amen

2. Polygamy: A Furturistic Family Arrangement for African Americans…Joseph Scott

3. Africana Wonamism:Reclaiming Ourselves…Clenora Hudson Weems

4. Delores P. Aldridge…has good works out about positive family forms other than monogamy.

FGM…has no place in African traditions. It was Arab culture that brought that. It’s a sick practice to suppress women’s sexuality that has nothing to do with polygyny. Monogamy and polygamy are forms of marriages that i respect and regard and neither of them is better or less than the other.

Yo
show moreu said i degrading sex in monogamy. Prove it? I said polygyny was/is a traditional way in solving an age old problem. when men outnumber women in a society b/c of war and natural selection. It is for practicality a way that each woman in a given society could have the rights to marriage, healthy sexual relationships, and child bearing to carrry on her name. Christainity in the OTpermits men to have more than one wife. The NT regulates it but does not ban it. It has only been in recent history that christianity changed and rearranged books of the Bible and more importantly that the christain church has criminalized it. Ever heard of the Confrence of Nicea? Islam..however under the Q’uran permits a man to have no more than four wives…and the only reason is b/c of war and so that the children of widows will not be orphans. That’s the only way in Islam that’s valid. Again Arabs mix theirculture with their religion and create a mess in which the family structure is unjust to women. Again that’s Arab culture not African. It’s not comparable to say the least nor of whether it’s legal or should be. People are doing in the U.S. whether Ravenesque is pleased with it, despised by, thinks it should be illegal, hostile about it or what have you. Any questions for Texas..should take up with him not me.
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“you can pull up info about ‘western’ idealogy to prove your opinion…but it won’t change what’s been a part of African traditions since ancient times.”

1) so what it’s been ‘a part of SOME african traditions since ancient times’. does it make it ‘right’? the enslavement of conquered people and selling them to other ‘black’ african tribes and tribes outside of ‘black africa’ has been part of many (most conquerers in fact) ‘african’ traditions since ancient times, too. i’ll bet those that got sold didnt think much of the practice.

2) the whole ‘that’s a western ideology’ is a copout for ‘ i can only argue with emotion, not fact’. polygyny/polygamy/et. al., where one man has many wives is good ONLY when there are few men, PLENTY of women and you’re going on a binge to expand the family, village, tribe and country. when this is not the case, it’s useless and it only relegates women to second class status.

“You want sources…fine i’ll give you sources..

1. Spiritual Guide to an Afrocentric Union…RaUn Nefer Amen

2. Polygamy: A Furturistic Family Arrangement for African Americans…Joseph Scott

3. Africana Wonamism:Reclaiming Ourselves…Clenora Hudson Weems

4. Delores P. Aldridge…has good works out about positive family forms other than monogamy.”

what are the credentials of these people, beyond being black and proponents of polygyny? all they’re doing is giving opinion. and STILL its failed to sway even a significant MINORITY of black folks…the vast majority of black people and people in general STILL see monogamy as the way to go, and as such, polygyny is ILLEGAL and always will be. there’s NO PLACE for polygyny in a MODERN, WESTERN, CAPITALIST WORLD.

“FGM…has no place in African traditions. It was Arab culture that brought that. It’s a sick practice to suppress women’s sexuality that has nothing to do with polygyny.”

‘arab’ is african. look at arabs…from osama bin laden to the house of saud. they are , at best, lighter skinned black folks. black folks were on the arab subcontinent well before assyrians and persians came in. their genes were so evident, that even when you go back 1500 b.c. plus, during a time when conquest/trade/mixing of the non black assyrians and the blacks on the arab subcontinent occurred, they kept a good deal of their blackness.

and yes, there’s a link ( i gave TWO sources) between what OBVIOUSLY BLACK AFRICANS CURRENTLY PRACTICE (and have for HUNDREDS and THOUSANDS of years)- FGM- and african tradition AND polygyny.

” Monogamy and polygamy are forms of marriages that i respect and regard and neither of them is better or less than the other. “

actually, monogamy is BETTER in a MODERN, WESTERN SOCIETY (the one african americans live in) than polygyny. there are not vastly more women than men…our country is 300 million plus strong, thus no need to increase the numbers. in a modern capitalistic society, multiple wives means multiple children, and most men can’t afford to support all those kids and wives. a working woman with a real job and career is SIMPLY NOT LIKELY TO KNOWINGLY SHARE HER MAN. there’s no benefit socially, sexually, financially for a woman that has a career. none. nada.

“You said i degrading sex in monogamy. Prove it? I said polygyny was/is a traditional way in solving an age old problem. “

just because you claim something is ‘traditional’ doesn’t mean it’s inherently ‘right’ or ‘correct’. again, ‘slavery’ was traditional all over the world, and all over the african continent. those that were enslaved would argue that this ‘tradition’ is barbaric and unfair.

“when men outnumber women in a society b/c of war and natural selection. It is for practicality a way that each woman in a given society could have the rights to marriage, healthy sexual relationships, and child bearing to carrry on her name. “

i think you meant when women outnumber men…women don’t outnumber men substantially in THIS COUNTRY to make this a real issue. women who work and have a career in this country simply don’t want to share a man, particularly when its not necessary.

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smack_u_silly
Male, Age Private, Vancouver, BC

Posted Mar 5

chrystal pistol…part 2:

“Christainity in the OTpermits men to have more than one wife.”

doesnt make it right. it also talked about folks willing to kill their kids to sacrifice to God. that aint right, either.

” The NT regulates it but does not ban it. “

the bible, koran and any other ‘holy book’ is just that…stuff written BY MAN. when a people are oppressed, and need to increase their numbers quickly, it makes sense to practice polygyny. few men, many women can create a good number of ‘your people’ in a relatively short time (say, two generations). once you have the people you need, it becomes abusive. as i showed in my links and quotes, the age difference in polygynous societie between the man and the woman is greater than in monogamous relationships. and when you get past the first wife, the girl gets even YOUNGER.

note on those nutcase utah areas, where folks practice this stuff illegally. the older men have the money and resources and the younger men don’t. these younger men are driven from the society, and thus the ONLY option for these young girls is, of course, the older men. older men and young girls creates an environment of POWER that leads to ABUSE of such power.

” the It has only been in recent history that christianity changed and rearranged books of the Bible and more importantly that the christain church has criminalized it. Ever heard of the Confrence of Nicea?”

dont matter, since the bible, the koran and all other holy books are STILL written by men…men who are affected by THEIR CULTURAL BIASES.

“Islam..however under the Q’uran permits a man to have no more than four wives…and the only reason is b/c of war and so that the children of widows will not be orphans. That’s the only way in Islam that’s valid. Again Arabs mix theirculture with their religion and create a mess in which the family structure is unjust to women. Again that’s Arab culture not African.”

1) arabs have and still are mostly a ‘black’ or ‘black mix’ people.
2) the koran was written by MEN who were influenced by their cultural biases
3) even in YOUR example here, its only in times of war and to make sure the children won’t be be orphans. in the united states and most countries that aren’t backwards, there’s a safety net called ‘welfare’ that protects the children. also, women can GET OUT AND WORK in these societies.

thus, polygyny is useless in a modern setting.

“It’s not comparable to say the least nor of whether it’s legal or should be. “

yes it is. its illegal, and can’t be practiced.

“People are doing in the U.S. whether Ravenesque is pleased with it, despised by, thinks it should be illegal, hostile about it or what have you. “

they may ‘practice’ it, but not out in the open, cuz ITS ILLEGAL. if they’re shacking up, not legally married, good for them. the VAST MAJORITY OF FOLKS simply wont do it, because THE VAST MAJORITY OF WOMEN wouldnt put up with it.

polygyny/polygamy is a useless practice in the MODERN CAPITALISTIC WORLD that can only lead to abuse of the women.

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Crystal_Pistol1
Female, 23, Ethiopia

Posted Mar 6

smack_u_silly
Male, Age Private, Vancouver, BC

chrystal pistol…part 2:

“Christainity in the OTpermits men to have more than one wife.”

doesnt make it right. it also talked about folks willing to kill their kids to sacrifice to God. that aint right, either.

” The NT regulates it but does not ban it. “

the bible, koran and any other ‘holy book’ is just that…stuff written BY MAN. when a people are oppressed, and need to increase their numbers quickly, it makes sense to practice polygyny. few men, many women can create a good number of ‘your people’ in a relatively short time (say, two generations). once you have the people you need, it becomes abusive. as i showed in my links and quotes, the age difference in polygynous societie between the man and the woman is greater than in monogamous relationships. and when you get past the first wife, the girl gets even YOUNGER.

note on those nutcase utah areas, where folks practice this stuff illegally. the older men have the money and resources and the younger men don’t. these
show more younger men are driven from the society, and thus the ONLY option for these young girls is, of course, the older men. older men and young girls creates an environment of POWER that leads to ABUSE of such power. ” the It has only been in recent history that christianity changed and rearranged books of the Bible and more importantly that the christain church has criminalized it. Ever heard of the Confrence of Nicea?” dont matter, since the bible, the koran and all other holy books are STILL written by men…men who are affected by THEIR CULTURAL BIASES. “Islam..however under the Q’uran permits a man to have no more than four wives…and the only reason is b/c of war and so that the children of widows will not be orphans. That’s the only way in Islam that’s valid. Again Arabs mix theirculture with their religion and create a mess in which the family structure is unjust to women. Again that’s Arab culture not African.” 1) arabs have and still are mostly a ‘black’ or ‘black mix’ people. 2) the koran was written by MEN who were influenced by their cultural biases 3) even in YOUR example here, its only in times of war and to make sure the children won’t be be orphans. in the united states and most countries that aren’t backwards, there’s a safety net called ‘welfare’ that protects the children. also, women can GET OUT AND WORK in these societies. thus, polygyny is useless in a modern setting. “It’s not comparable to say the least nor of whether it’s legal or should be. ” yes it is. its illegal, and can’t be practiced. “People are doing in the U.S. whether Ravenesque is pleased with it, despised by, thinks it should be illegal, hostile about it or what have you. ” they may ‘practice’ it, but not out in the open, cuz ITS ILLEGAL. if they’re shacking up, not legally married, good for them. the VAST MAJORITY OF FOLKS simply wont do it, because THE VAST MAJORITY OF WOMEN wouldnt put up with it. polygyny/polygamy is a useless practice in the MODERN CAPITALISTIC WORLD that can only lead to abuse of the women.
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ok but where did i say you or anyone else in the U.S. has to like it, tolerate it, or what have you?

i was simply discussing….

nevermind.

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smack_u_silly
Male, Age Private, Vancouver, BC

Posted Mar 6

Crystal_Pistol1
Female, 23, Ethiopia

ok but where did i say you or anyone else in the U.S. has to like it, tolerate it, or what have you?

i was simply discussing….

nevermind.

“ok but where did i say you or anyone else in the U.S. has to like it, tolerate it, or what have you?”

i don’t think i said that you were forcing polygyny on to others. you ARE an advocate, and you listed books by other advocates of polygyny, as an ‘alternative form of relationship for african americans’, where you and they claimed it was ‘african tradition’.

i’m simply saying:

1) who cares if its an ‘african tradition’ or not; it simply has no place in american (or western) capitialist socities;

2) the vast majority of black and non black people in this country find the idea wrong headed, they’re not going to change, and the laws about polygyny won’t change.

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Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

Posted Mar 7

smack_u_silly
Male, Age Private, Vancouver, BC

yet another link between polygyny, FGM, ignorance and the second class status of women that live in this idiocy:

http://www.popcouncil.org/pdfs/briefingsheets/MALI.pdf

“Mali has one of the most severe crises of child marriage in the
world today. The legal age of marriage is 18 for girls and 21 for boys, but
girls may be married as early as age 15 with parental consent For civil
marriages, the law dictates that prospective spouses discuss and agree
on whether their union will be polygynous or monogamous; however, a
woman’s say in the matter is minimal given her limited options, and
most women have only a religious marriage performed. Furthermore,
most women in this overwhelmingly Muslim country accept polygyny as
a practice sanctioned by Islam, which permits a man to have up to four
wives. The payment of bride price is recognized by law,18 promoting the
perception that wives are the property of husbands.

In addition, female
genital circumcision affects nearly all Malian women (92
show more percent), with 61 percent of circumcisions occurring before age 5.19 A high prevalence of child marriage exists Nationwide, 25 percent of girls were married by age 15, and nearly two-thirds of girls were married by age 18.20 Child marriage is extremely prevalent in some regions; in Kayes, 39 percent of girls were married by age 15, and 83 percent were married by age 18. Although the practice of polygyny is decreasing in Mali, 22 percent of married girls aged 15–19 are in polygynous marriages.22 Married girls receive little or no schooling Eighty-six percent of married girls have received no education, compared to 62 percent of unmarried girls.23 More than nine out of ten married girls aged 15–19 cannot read at all. Large spousal age differences are common and may limit married girls’ autonomy and decisionmaking ability The younger a bride is, the greater the age difference between her and her spouse. In Mali, the mean age difference between spouses is 12.7 years if the wife marries before age 15 compared to 9.9 years if the wife marries at or after age 20. Spousal age differences are even greater when the girl is a second or third wife. In polygynous marriages, the mean age difference between spouses is 15.1 years, compared to 9.9 years in monogamous marriages. First births have elevated risks; the youngest first-time mothers and their children are especially vulnerable to poor health outcomes. A weak health infrastructure makes it difficult for mothers to receive adequate care. In rural areas, where the majority of Malians live, 85 percent of girls and women live at least 30 kilometers away from over”
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Thank you, Smack, for providing the research that supports my position that Polygyny degrades women by:

1) reinforcing the patriarchal structure of this marriage to benefit the man
2) treating woman as property, servants/slaves, and chattel

Furthermore, it proves my statement that women subjected to this arrangement or voluntarily agreeing to this arrange are backwards:

1) Women were illiterate
2) Women were ignorant and believed in superstitions

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Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

Posted Mar 7

Crystal_Pistol1
Female, 23, Ethiopia

what i still can’t figure out about you is that why you think, feel etc…that someone will be more apt to agree/listen to you by being hostile and profanity…it’s not even that serious,lol.

you can pull up info about ‘western’ idealogy to prove your opinion…but it won’t change what’s been a part of African traditions since ancient times.

You want sources…fine i’ll give you sources..

1. Spiritual Guide to an Afrocentric Union…RaUn Nefer Amen

2. Polygamy: A Furturistic Family Arrangement for African Americans…Joseph Scott

3. Africana Wonamism:Reclaiming Ourselves…Clenora Hudson Weems

4. Delores P. Aldridge…has good works out about positive family forms other than monogamy.

FGM…has no place in African traditions. It was Arab culture that brought that. It’s a sick practice to suppress women’s sexuality that has nothing to do with polygyny. Monogamy and polygamy are forms of marriages that i respect and regard and neither of them is better or less than the other.

Yo
show moreu said i degrading sex in monogamy. Prove it? I said polygyny was/is a traditional way in solving an age old problem. when men outnumber women in a society b/c of war and natural selection. It is for practicality a way that each woman in a given society could have the rights to marriage, healthy sexual relationships, and child bearing to carrry on her name. Christainity in the OTpermits men to have more than one wife. The NT regulates it but does not ban it. It has only been in recent history that christianity changed and rearranged books of the Bible and more importantly that the christain church has criminalized it. Ever heard of the Confrence of Nicea? Islam..however under the Q’uran permits a man to have no more than four wives…and the only reason is b/c of war and so that the children of widows will not be orphans. That’s the only way in Islam that’s valid. Again Arabs mix theirculture with their religion and create a mess in which the family structure is unjust to women. Again that’s Arab culture not African. It’s not comparable to say the least nor of whether it’s legal or should be. People are doing in the U.S. whether Ravenesque is pleased with it, despised by, thinks it should be illegal, hostile about it or what have you. Any questions for Texas..should take up with him not me.
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I was going to respond to your post, but I see Smack beat me to it.

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Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

Posted Mar 7

Smack, you argue like an expensive lawyer. I’m impressed.

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Quote Member

Eolufemi
Male, 27, Lansing, MI

Posted Mar 8

Crystal_Pistol1
Female, 23, Ethiopia

what i still can’t figure out about you is that why you think, feel etc…that someone will be more apt to agree/listen to you by being hostile and profanity…it’s not even that serious,lol.

you can pull up info about ‘western’ idealogy to prove your opinion…but it won’t change what’s been a part of African traditions since ancient times.

You want sources…fine i’ll give you sources..

1. Spiritual Guide to an Afrocentric Union…RaUn Nefer Amen

2. Polygamy: A Furturistic Family Arrangement for African Americans…Joseph Scott

3. Africana Wonamism:Reclaiming Ourselves…Clenora Hudson Weems

4. Delores P. Aldridge…has good works out about positive family forms other than monogamy.

FGM…has no place in African traditions. It was Arab culture that brought that. It’s a sick practice to suppress women’s sexuality that has nothing to do with polygyny. Monogamy and polygamy are forms of marriages that i respect and regard and neither of them is better or less than the other.

Yo
show moreu said i degrading sex in monogamy. Prove it? I said polygyny was/is a traditional way in solving an age old problem. when men outnumber women in a society b/c of war and natural selection. It is for practicality a way that each woman in a given society could have the rights to marriage, healthy sexual relationships, and child bearing to carrry on her name. Christainity in the OTpermits men to have more than one wife. The NT regulates it but does not ban it. It has only been in recent history that christianity changed and rearranged books of the Bible and more importantly that the christain church has criminalized it. Ever heard of the Confrence of Nicea? Islam..however under the Q’uran permits a man to have no more than four wives…and the only reason is b/c of war and so that the children of widows will not be orphans. That’s the only way in Islam that’s valid. Again Arabs mix theirculture with their religion and create a mess in which the family structure is unjust to women. Again that’s Arab culture not African. It’s not comparable to say the least nor of whether it’s legal or should be. People are doing in the U.S. whether Ravenesque is pleased with it, despised by, thinks it should be illegal, hostile about it or what have you. Any questions for Texas..should take up with him not me.
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Great posts.

I think they are ignoring the point you’ve made, which is the general benefit of a polygamous society. If women outnumber the men, monogamy is impossible and man-sharing is an inevitable by-product. Yet those women don’t get the benefit of protection under law or any real recognized obligation of the men to them.

I think the black community in particular would definitely benefit from getting rid of the stigmas attached to polygamy. There are 87 black men for every 100 black women. Only 25% or so of black women are childless by the time they are 30. While nearly 50% of black men are childless by that time. Clearly a lot of man sharing is already going on in our society. And the vast majority of these women have no claim on the men that father their children.

Monogamy has been a failure as a marital arrangement in our communities. Perhaps its time to give another idea a shot. Besides if an individual doesn’t want to be in that type of marriage they don’t have too. Personal choice should be respected and the government is being overly intrusive dictating to folks what they can do in their personal lives.

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smack_u_silly
Male, Age Private, Vancouver, BC

Posted Mar 8

Eolufemi
Male, 27, Lansing, MI

Great posts.

I think they are ignoring the point you’ve made, which is the general benefit of a polygamous society. If women outnumber the men, monogamy is impossible and man-sharing is an inevitable by-product. Yet those women don’t get the benefit of protection under law or any real recognized obligation of the men to them.

I think the black community in particular would definitely benefit from getting rid of the stigmas attached to polygamy. There are 87 black men for every 100 black women. Only 25% or so of black women are childless by the time they are 30. While nearly 50% of black men are childless by that time. Clearly a lot of man sharing is already going on in our society. And the vast majority of these women have no claim on the men that father their children.

Monogamy has been a failure as a marital arrangement in our communities. Perhaps its time to give another idea a shot. Besides if an individual doesn’t want to be in that type of marriage they don’t have too. Persona
show morel choice should be respected and the government is being overly intrusive dictating to folks what they can do in their personal lives.
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“I think they are ignoring the point you’ve made, which is the general benefit of a polygamous society. If women outnumber the men, monogamy is impossible and man-sharing is an inevitable by-product. Yet those women don’t get the benefit of protection under law or any real recognized obligation of the men to them.”

1) when i was in sales, we learned you can’t ‘sell’ something to anybody…you have to address a REAL NEED (‘real need’ according to THEM, not you). as such, no matter how many virtues and benefits polygamous societies allegedly have, if the people you’re talking to don’t see these benefits, that means there’s no benefit in it for them.

2) women outnumber men, but that’s the way its always been. they don’t outnumber men in THIS SOCIETY in numbers that necessitate polygamy. so, yes , there will be women that don’t have men, but that means they simply can’t compete with women who DO have men. conversely, though women outnumber men, there are men that can’t attract/keep women, and that’s because these men can’t compete with other men.

“I think the black community in particular would definitely benefit from getting rid of the stigmas attached to polygamy. There are 87 black men for every 100 black women. Only 25% or so of black women are childless by the time they are 30. While nearly 50% of black men are childless by that time. Clearly a lot of man sharing is already going on in our society. And the vast majority of these women have no claim on the men that father their children.”

i’d like to know where you got that 25% number from (cuz i can use that and its source later on to argue why a man without kids, who’s educated, fit, etc., really has no need for a woman with kids).

beyond that, yes, man sharing is going on…but its UNWANTED man sharing. and its bad decision making on the part of women to HAVE A CHILD WITH A MAN THEY’RE NOT MARRIED TO. if the women KNEW (or admitted to themselves) that they were sharing a man with another woman/other women, they’d not do it. with the spread of STDs in the black community, the men that are being shared are not the prime men…the women simply need to keep their legs closed, or used protection, when dealing with these men.

and the women that accept this idiocy of getting knocked up, repeatedly, by men they’re not married to are typically not prime women. an educated, career woman doesnt have as much time to crank out kid after kid (educated and affluent women tend to have fewer kids anyway) without benefit of marriage. and educated/affluent women who are pretty, initially childless, fit and nice will NEVER BE LIKELY, IN THIS SOCIETY, TO SHARE A MAN.

“Monogamy has been a failure as a marital arrangement in our communities. “

in the poorer/less educated elements of our society. poor and ignorant have more children worldwide…how can our poor be any different. however, i’m neither poor nor ignorant, never grew up in the ghetto/slums, and likely will never life there. the poor community is no more MY ‘community’ than appalachia is for an affluent white person who grew up that way in manhatten.

“Perhaps its time to give another idea a shot. “

again, its an idea (polygyny) that simply doesnt hold any benefit for:

1) most black folks;
2) particularly educated and affluent black folks;
3) particularly educated, affluent black women.
4) the united states in general, thus the illegality of polygamy…that aint EVER gonna be legal in ANY state.

why #3? because a black woman that would conced to ‘sharing’ a man is an admission she can’t get a man for herself. its an admission that she can’t compete with the desireable women (fit, pretty, sane, nice, childless), and that she has to SETTLE for a shared relationship; that she has to be happy getting a piece of man.

now, for the dregs of black society (ghetto, ignorant, no work/career skills, etc.) this may be a great arrangement, but any man WORTH anything is likely not to WANT her…what benefit does a poor/ignorant ghetto woman have (socially) for a man that is educated and affluent? very little.

“Besides if an individual doesn’t want to be in that type of marriage they don’t have too. Personal choice should be respected and the government is being overly intrusive dictating to folks what they can do in their personal lives. “

maybe…but most folks don’t see ‘monogamous relationships’ as ‘intrusive. they see it as a natural relationship in a society that doesnt need to quickly increase its numbers.

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smack_u_silly
Male, Age Private, Vancouver, BC

Posted Mar 8

Ravenesque
Female, 33, Seattle, WA

Smack, you argue like an expensive lawyer. I’m impressed.

LOL…mid priced to appeal to the masses.

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Eolufemi
Male, 27, Lansing, MI

Posted Mar 9

smack_u_silly
Male, Age Private, Vancouver, BC

“I think they are ignoring the point you’ve made, which is the general benefit of a polygamous society. If women outnumber the men, monogamy is impossible and man-sharing is an inevitable by-product. Yet those women don’t get the benefit of protection under law or any real recognized obligation of the men to them.”

1) when i was in sales, we learned you can’t ‘sell’ something to anybody…you have to address a REAL NEED (‘real need’ according to THEM, not you). as such, no matter how many virtues and benefits polygamous societies allegedly have, if the people you’re talking to don’t see these benefits, that means there’s no benefit in it for them.

2) women outnumber men, but that’s the way its always been. they don’t outnumber men in THIS SOCIETY in numbers that necessitate polygamy. so, yes , there will be women that don’t have men, but that means they simply can’t compete with women who DO have men. conversely, though women outnumber men, there are men that can’t attract/keep
show morewomen, and that’s because these men can’t compete with other men. “I think the black community in particular would definitely benefit from getting rid of the stigmas attached to polygamy. There are 87 black men for every 100 black women. Only 25% or so of black women are childless by the time they are 30. While nearly 50% of black men are childless by that time. Clearly a lot of man sharing is already going on in our society. And the vast majority of these women have no claim on the men that father their children.” i’d like to know where you got that 25% number from (cuz i can use that and its source later on to argue why a man without kids, who’s educated, fit, etc., really has no need for a woman with kids). beyond that, yes, man sharing is going on…but its UNWANTED man sharing. and its bad decision making on the part of women to HAVE A CHILD WITH A MAN THEY’RE NOT MARRIED TO. if the women KNEW (or admitted to themselves) that they were sharing a man with another woman/other women, they’d not do it. with the spread of STDs in the black community, the men that are being shared are not the prime men…the women simply need to keep their legs closed, or used protection, when dealing with these men. and the women that accept this idiocy of getting knocked up, repeatedly, by men they’re not married to are typically not prime women. an educated, career woman doesnt have as much time to crank out kid after kid (educated and affluent women tend to have fewer kids anyway) without benefit of marriage. and educated/affluent women who are pretty, initially childless, fit and nice will NEVER BE LIKELY, IN THIS SOCIETY, TO SHARE A MAN. “Monogamy has been a failure as a marital arrangement in our communities. ” in the poorer/less educated elements of our society. poor and ignorant have more children worldwide…how can our poor be any different. however, i’m neither poor nor ignorant, never grew up in the ghetto/slums, and likely will never life there. the poor community is no more MY ‘community’ than appalachia is for an affluent white person who grew up that way in manhatten. “Perhaps its time to give another idea a shot. ” again, its an idea (polygyny) that simply doesnt hold any benefit for: 1) most black folks; 2) particularly educated and affluent black folks; 3) particularly educated, affluent black women. 4) the united states in general, thus the illegality of polygamy…that aint EVER gonna be legal in ANY state. why #3? because a black woman that would conced to ‘sharing’ a man is an admission she can’t get a man for herself. its an admission that she can’t compete with the desireable women (fit, pretty, sane, nice, childless), and that she has to SETTLE for a shared relationship; that she has to be happy getting a piece of man. now, for the dregs of black society (ghetto, ignorant, no work/career skills, etc.) this may be a great arrangement, but any man WORTH anything is likely not to WANT her…what benefit does a poor/ignorant ghetto woman have (socially) for a man that is educated and affluent? very little. “Besides if an individual doesn’t want to be in that type of marriage they don’t have too. Personal choice should be respected and the government is being overly intrusive dictating to folks what they can do in their personal lives. ” maybe…but most folks don’t see ‘monogamous relationships’ as ‘intrusive. they see it as a natural relationship in a society that doesnt need to quickly increase its numbers.
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You wrote a lot of words but most of it boiled down to making tone arguments. So I’ll try not to get caught up responding to your tone but its kind of difficult when someone relies so heavily on inflammatory rhetoric.

You basically made three (and a half) points. You don’t see a benefit in polygamy personally and you look down on anyone that could benefit or sees the benefit in this practice. This is basically an argument for why you shouldn’t be in a polygamous relationship rather than someone else.No need to respond to that, its just a personal opinion presented as true for most people made through a tone argument.

Your second point really wasnt one. Yes there are more women than men, so of course women who are less attractive to most men are going to be missing out. However, marriage as I see it should be an option for whoever wants it not just the few that society confers on privileges that would make them attractive to the programed majority of men. The simple way to give folks the opportunity to marry if they so chose is to remove the cap on male marital partners created by monogamy.

Your third point or rather question, male fertility statistics are found on the Census and Health department websites. I invite you to bring whatever counter facts you like. But, you’ll find that my argument is not that single women with children are attractive. My argument is that monogamy creates a context where a lot of mothers will be single due to man-sharing without the option of a multi-spouse household. As the original question asked for the benefits of this marital arrangement, this would be one.

On to your fourth point, we get it you don’t like single parents or anybody else you consider low class. Who cares? LOLs. Your value judgments are your value judgments. Why does the rest of society have to live by your values? People can and should decide for themselves whether they prefer monogamy, polygamy or just simply being single. Freedom of choice is also a value, since you want to live by your values, why begrudge other people the same option. Let people individually decide whether or not its a choice they want to make. If you are correct and most people don’t value this as an option than what do you have to lose if a few people desire this right to choose.

The rest of your post was just a diatribe against people you consider beneath you. Those are your issues, again who cares? Now of course you can say what you like, but why even include it in a response to me. Honestly, I prefer not to be used as an excuse to denigrate poor people and single mothers.

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smack_u_silly
Male, Age Private, Vancouver, BC

Posted Mar 9

Eolufemi
Male, 27, Lansing, MI

You wrote a lot of words but most of it boiled down to making tone arguments. So I’ll try not to get caught up responding to your tone but its kind of difficult when someone relies so heavily on inflammatory rhetoric.

You basically made three (and a half) points. You don’t see a benefit in polygamy personally and you look down on anyone that could benefit or sees the benefit in this practice. This is basically an argument for why you shouldn’t be in a polygamous relationship rather than someone else.No need to respond to that, its just a personal opinion presented as true for most people made through a tone argument.

Your second point really wasnt one. Yes there are more women than men, so of course women who are less attractive to most men are going to be missing out. However, marriage as I see it should be an option for whoever wants it not just the few that society confers on privileges that would make them attractive to the programed majority of men. The simple way to give folk
show mores the opportunity to marry if they so chose is to remove the cap on male marital partners created by monogamy. Your third point or rather question, male fertility statistics are found on the Census and Health department websites. I invite you to bring whatever counter facts you like. But, you’ll find that my argument is not that single women with children are attractive. My argument is that monogamy creates a context where a lot of mothers will be single due to man-sharing without the option of a multi-spouse household. As the original question asked for the benefits of this marital arrangement, this would be one. On to your fourth point, we get it you don’t like single parents or anybody else you consider low class. Who cares? LOLs. Your value judgments are your value judgments. Why does the rest of society have to live by your values? People can and should decide for themselves whether they prefer monogamy, polygamy or just simply being single. Freedom of choice is also a value, since you want to live by your values, why begrudge other people the same option. Let people individually decide whether or not its a choice they want to make. If you are correct and most people don’t value this as an option than what do you have to lose if a few people desire this right to choose. The rest of your post was just a diatribe against people you consider beneath you. Those are your issues, again who cares? Now of course you can say what you like, but why even include it in a response to me. Honestly, I prefer not to be used as an excuse to denigrate poor people and single mothers.
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“You wrote a lot of words but most of it boiled down to making tone arguments. So I’ll try not to get caught up responding to your tone but its kind of difficult when someone relies so heavily on inflammatory rhetoric. “

you can say its ‘tone arguements’ but its not. YOU said things that i simply countered. whether you feel you’re ‘getting caught up’ or not is your thing.

“You basically made three (and a half) points. “

so you say.

“You don’t see a benefit in polygamy personally and you look down on anyone that could benefit or sees the benefit in this practice. “

WRONG! i don’t benefit PERSONALLY from polygamy, nor do MOST people, thats why this society has laws against it. i don’t look down on polygamy, i just know that in a modern, western capitalistic society:

1) men aren’t seeking this, because for no other reason they can’t afford it, and;
2) women about anything (socially, economically, academically, etc.) have nothing to gain.

“This is basically an argument for why you shouldn’t be in a polygamous relationship rather than someone else.”

WRONG! my arguement is for why polygamy will never be accepted in a modern, western, capitalistic society such as the united states.

“No need to respond to that, its just a personal opinion presented as true for most people made through a tone argument. “

1) i’ll respond to your statement because you assumed incorrectly. thus, there WAS a need;
2) not a tone arguement, and you cant prove it is.

“Your second point really wasnt one. “

so you say, but you didnt even get the ‘first arguement’ correct.

“Yes there are more women than men, so of course women who are less attractive to most men are going to be missing out. “

well, thats right at least. and that’s tough for the less attractive women. not anybody’s problem but HER’S and those that care for her.

“However, marriage as I see it should be an option for whoever wants it not just the few that society confers on privileges that would make them attractive to the programed majority of men. “

WRONG. marriage is a ‘priviledge’, and its for those that are physically , mentally, and emotionally ready for it. nobody is ‘owed’ marriage.

“The simple way to give folks the opportunity to marry if they so chose is to remove the cap on male marital partners created by monogamy. “

again, its a market situation…within reason, the best women physically , academically and emotionally have more choices than the lesser women; same with men.

“Your third point or rather question, male fertility statistics are found on the Census and Health department websites. I invite you to bring whatever counter facts you like. But, you’ll find that my argument is not that single women with children are attractive.”

again, so you say this is my third arguement. but lets continue.

” My argument is that monogamy creates a context where a lot of mothers will be single due to man-sharing without the option of a multi-spouse household.”

life’s tough. if a woman is ‘sharing’ a man beyond her knowledge, thats tough. she doesnt have to get knocked up…she can use protection (have him use a condom) and she can use birth control pills. she can also use the morning after pill now.

if she GETS knocked up because she was too stupid to do any of the above, she can get an abortion, or give the child away.

there are any NUMBER of precautions to NOT be a single mother.

” As the original question asked for the benefits of this marital arrangement, this would be one.”

its a ‘benefit’ for an easily avoidable situation (single motherhood) and i’ll wager even for THEM, knowingly sharing a man is not the answer.

“On to your fourth point, we get it you don’t like single parents or anybody else you consider low class. Who cares? “

1) its not that i don’t like single parents. i just would never deal with a single mother.
2) i care;
3) most men who are single, successful and desireable to women care.
4) oh, WRONG again, aren’t you?

“LOLs. Your value judgments are your value judgments. “

exactly…they just happen to be the mode for others in my socio-economic area…the people who are ‘most desireable’ to the opposite sex.

“Why does the rest of society have to live by your values?”

they don’t have to…they just do. or maybe i live my values based on the rest of society. or its a combo of both?

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smack_u_silly
Male, Age Private, Vancouver, BC

Posted Mar 9

euolufimi, part 2:

“” People can and should decide for themselves whether they prefer monogamy, polygamy or just simply being single. “

but they aren’t…thats the issue. no matter how many ‘benefits’ you can extol for polygamy, THE MAJORITY in THIS SOCIETY simply don’t SEE the ‘benefits’ you extol as benefits.

it is YOU that is trying to decide what IS a benefit or others…you can’t do that. thats why i gave you the logic of sales professionals: what YOU as the ‘seller’ may consider a benefit the prospective buyer may not. YOU have to find out whats important to those you’re trying to sell, and hope they’ll tell you.

in this case, society as a whole, and black folks, don’t consider what YOU call benefits of polygamy to be benefits. likely never will.

“Freedom of choice is also a value, since you want to live by your values, why begrudge other people the same option.”

we live in a republic, and the majority rules. don’t like it, that’s regrettable. most people dont see the benefit of polygamy…thats why there are laws on the books. most people also dont see the benefit in taking those laws off the books. thus, they stay on the books.

” Let people individually decide whether or not its a choice they want to make. “

see my above statement.

“If you are correct and most people don’t value this as an option than what do you have to lose if a few people desire this right to choose.”

because there are values that are shared by the majority of the population. personally, i could care less about folks wanting to have multiple husbands. you’re right, don’t bother me. i also dont give a damn about gay marriage. not my problem.

but i also don’t suffer having the current laws on the books, and i’m not likely to go out and vote on a referendum to get them off the books. most folks feel like i do, at least in most states regarding polygamy.

oh well…laws won’t be changed.

“The rest of your post was just a diatribe against people you consider beneath you.”

1) you saying its a ‘diatribe’ dont’ make it so. your opinion, you’re welcome to it. just because you FAILED to sway me and others doesnt make what i say a ‘diatribe’. try that old trick on someone else.

2) i never said anyone was beneath me…thats another tired trick that doesnt work with me.

” Those are your issues, again who cares?”

1) they arent my issues, because you’re making them up in a failed attempt to push YOUR idea. won’t work.

2) you must care, because you responded to me.

” Now of course you can say what you like”

no feces, fellini?

“, but why even include it in a response to me. “

because i can.

“Honestly, I prefer not to be used as an excuse to denigrate poor people and single mothers. “

1) i’m not denigrating poor people and single mothers…i simply don’t desire either as a wife. just like some women prefer not to have short men, or broke men. i have a right to my preferences, and a right to say them.

don’t like it….so?

2) i’m not ‘using’ you to do anything, but if i was, do you REALLY think i care if you ‘prefer’ it or not?

we can go back and forth, you gave your opinion, and i’m GOING to give mine. thats how it has to be.

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Eolufemi
Male, 27, Lansing, MI

Posted Mar 11

Well, well, well, I guess you told me, huh. LOLs!!!(sigh…)Yet again, you miss the mark. In your eagerness to argue, you’ve forgotten what the discussion is about. Its a basic question of the pros and cons of polygamy. Not a question of how to convince congress to change the laws or how to convince people like you to become polygamists. Or whether I am correct and your posts wreak of intolerance for other cultures and belief sets. The validity of that observation is either confirmed or denied by the content of your posts and others reading of them. Not in your denial or admitting as much. In all that you’ve said, your basic con is that you and your kind wouldn’t do it, and if anybody dares suggest otherwise you’ll go into spam mode and “win” by attrition.

Okay…this argument again is not passing the so what test.

The point was made and your copious response was lacking in substance. I guess for you it was one of those, “when in doubt spam with argumentative asides” moments. Focus my friend. In a monogamous society where women outnumber men, women will inevitably be forced to share men. The question at that point is whether people who chose to share partners can benefit from doing so. At the very least they have an agreed upon arrangement that they feel works for their particular context. This is the epitome of having the freedom in the “pursuit of happiness”. Personal choice and self determination in the absence of a clear threat or harm to others is a right worth respecting. Its that simple. Anything else is just an excuse to impose one’s beliefs on others.

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Quote Member

smack_u_silly
Male, Age Private, Vancouver, BC

Posted Mar 11

Eolufemi
Male, 27, Lansing, MI

Well, well, well, I guess you told me, huh. LOLs!!!(sigh…)Yet again, you miss the mark. In your eagerness to argue, you’ve forgotten what the discussion is about. Its a basic question of the pros and cons of polygamy. Not a question of how to convince congress to change the laws or how to convince people like you to become polygamists. Or whether I am correct and your posts wreak of intolerance for other cultures and belief sets. The validity of that observation is either confirmed or denied by the content of your posts and others reading of them. Not in your denial or admitting as much. In all that you’ve said, your basic con is that you and your kind wouldn’t do it, and if anybody dares suggest otherwise you’ll go into spam mode and “win” by attrition.

Okay…this argument again is not passing the so what test.

The point was made and your copious response was lacking in substance. I guess for you it was one of those, “when in doubt spam with argumentative asides” moments. Focus
show more my friend. In a monogamous society where women outnumber men, women will inevitably be forced to share men. The question at that point is whether people who chose to share partners can benefit from doing so. At the very least they have an agreed upon arrangement that they feel works for their particular context. This is the epitome of having the freedom in the “pursuit of happiness”. Personal choice and self determination in the absence of a clear threat or harm to others is a right worth respecting. Its that simple. Anything else is just an excuse to impose one’s beliefs on others.
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“Well, well, well, I guess you told me, huh. LOLs!!!(sigh…)”

hollow statement. yes, laugh. thats all you can do.

“Yet again, you miss the mark. “

i didn’t, and your saying i did won’t make it so.

“In your eagerness to argue,”

YOUR eagerness to argue.

” you’ve forgotten “

haven’t forgotten one thing.

“what the discussion is about. “

no, you simply perverted the conversation to make YOUR point.

“Its a basic question of the pros and cons of polygamy.”

whatever ‘pros’ you list (as i said) are MEANINGLESS to people , because IF they meant something, the laws would have been changed.

just because YOU claim there are benefits doesnt mean OTHERS will see it as that.

” Not a question of how to convince congress to change the laws or how to convince people like you to become polygamists. “

this is where YOU are absolutely wrong. there are laws preventing polygamy, right? yes or no will suffice.

now, in order to rescind those laws, elected officials have to see if the alleged ‘merits’ of polygamy outweight the alleged ‘costs’ of polygamy.

in order for THEM to do this, they are answerable to their CONSTITUENTS.

in order for their CONSTITUENTS to push for this, they have to GIVE A DAMN.

most folks in a WESTERN CAPITALISTIC SOCIETY like the u.s. DONT GIVE A DAMN.

so they won’t vote for that.

so their elected officials wont vote for that.

which means its a done deal.

“Or whether I am correct and your posts wreak of intolerance for other cultures and belief sets. “

you’re incorrect. did i NOT JUST SAY recently that ‘personally, i don’t give a damn about polygamy or homosexual marriages’?

of course i did.

however, that ‘not giving a damn’ also means i’m not ABOUT to vote FOR or AGAINST rescinding the laws that BAN either.

i don’t care.

its not an issue.

i’d simply skip that vote.

“The validity of that observation is either confirmed or denied by the content of your posts and others reading of them.”

i already said i dont give a damn. thats the validity.

” Not in your denial or admitting as much.”

so you say.

” In all that you’ve said, your basic con is that you and your kind wouldn’t do it, and if anybody dares suggest otherwise you’ll go into spam mode and “win” by attrition.”

wrong again, bright boy. i said folks dont care, and wont act on it. life sucks when you hold an opinion that is either unpopular or one that people dont care about.

you and your fellow pushers of polygamy have simply not provided REASONS FOR THE AVERAGE PERSON to see polygamy as a ‘good’ thing.

“Okay…this argument again is not passing the so what test. “

your arguement isnt.

“The point was made and your copious response was lacking in substance. “

no, it was chock full of substance…YOUR arguement isnt. giving what YOU think are merits for polygamy mean squat to most folks. thats a BASIC in sales.

“I guess for you it was one of those, “when in doubt spam with argumentative asides” moments. “

you guess and presume too much, little man.

“Focus my friend. “

i don’t have to. i’m not trying to convince others to check out polygamy. YOU are. YOU should ‘focus’ on coming up with reasons that would sway the majority into thinking LIKE YOU, or at least voting ‘yes’ on any referendums that would make polygamy legal in their state. so far, you haven’t.

“In a monogamous society where women outnumber men, women will inevitably be forced to share men.”

not all women. that’s ridiculous on its face. the higher quality women (pretty, fit, educated, career minded, sane) don’t HAVE to share men. the ugly, fat, less eduated, poorer MAY have to share men. even then, doubtful most would WILLINGLY and KNOWINGLY share a man.

” The question at that point is whether people who chose to share partners can benefit from doing so.”

YOU have to PROVE to the majority that there IS any benefit in women sharing men. you haven’t so far.

” At the very least they have an agreed upon arrangement that they feel works for their particular context.”

again, just saying it doesnt convince. you have to GIVE VALUE ADDED to the people you’re trying to convince.

” This is the epitome of having the freedom in the “pursuit of happiness”. “

we’re in a republic…majority rules.

“Personal choice and self determination in the absence of a clear threat or harm to others is a right worth respecting. Its that simple. Anything else is just an excuse to impose one’s beliefs on others. “

unfair as it IS, if YOU don’t convince THE MAJORITY that there is benefit in polygamous relationship, then in a REPUBLIC, the majority RULES…and the majority will be able to enforce THE MAJORITY OPINION on to the minority.

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Texas357
Male, 26, Milwaukee, WI

Posted Apr 10

i disagree. no one has really made a good argument to institute gay marriage except for the fact that people ought to be able to express their love to who they choose and live as a married couple. the same can be said for polygamy. It is simply people wanting to live as a legally married couple with the people they love. The laws that keep these people from this pursuit of hapiness is unconstitutional………………………furthermore the bullsh*t they show on tv about theses crazy polygamous villages has nothing to do with the millions of people in the US rite now who are married or living in polygamous relationships. I think it will be a long time before someone takes the initiative to venture into a modern US polygamous home with a camera and tell the truth about polygamy………..remember, the next time you see a man/or a woman walking or riding with more than one woman/or man, it mite be polygamy. pay attention. it happens more than what you think.

AFRICAN POLYGAMY IN NEW YORK CITY,2007 FROM NEW YORK TIMES

from nytimes.com

In Secret, Polygamy Follows Africans to N.Y.
Shiho Fukada for The New York Times
Aminata Kante left her husband after he took a second wife.

By NINA BERNSTEIN
Published: March 23, 2007
She worked at the Red Lobster in Times Square and lived with her husband near Yankee Stadium. Yet one night, returning home from her job, Odine D. discovered that African custom, not American law, held sway over her marriage.

A strange woman was sitting in the living room, and Ms. D.’s husband, a security guard born in Ghana, introduced her as his other wife.

Devastated, Ms. D., a Guinean immigrant who insisted that her last name be withheld, said she protested: “I can’t live with the woman in my house — we have only two bedrooms.” Her husband cited Islamic precepts allowing a man to have up to four wives, and told her to get used to it. And she tried to obey.

Polygamy in America, outlawed in every state but rarely prosecuted, has long been associated with Mormon splinter groups out West, not immigrants in New York. But a fatal fire in a row house in the Bronx on March 7 revealed its presence here, in a world very different from the suburban Utah setting of “Big Love,” the HBO series about polygamists next door.

The city’s mourning for the dead — a woman and nine children in two families from Mali — has been followed by a hushed double take at the domestic arrangements described by relatives: Moussa Magassa, the Mali-born American citizen who owned the house and was the father of five children who perished, had two wives in the home, on different floors. Both survived.

No one knows how prevalent polygamy is in New York. Those who practice it have cause to keep it secret: under immigration law, polygamy is grounds for exclusion from the United States.

Under state law, bigamy can be punished by up to four years in prison,

No agency is known to collect data on polygamous unions, which typically take shape over time and under the radar, often with religious ceremonies overseas and a visitor’s visa for the wife, arranged by other relatives. Some men have one wife in the United States and others abroad.

But the Magassas clearly are not an isolated case. Immigration to New York and other American cities has soared from places where polygamy is lawful and widespread, especially from West African countries like Mali, where demographic surveys show that 43 percent of women are in polygamous marriages.

And the picture that emerges from dozens of interviews with African immigrants, officials and scholars of polygamy is of a clandestine practice that probably involves thousands of New Yorkers.

“It’s difficult, but one accepts it because it’s our religion,” said Doussou Traoré, 52, president of an association of Malian women in New York, who married an older man with two other wives who remain in Mali. “Our mothers accepted it. Our grandmothers accepted it. Why not us?”

Other women spoke bitterly of polygamy. They said their participation was dictated by an African culture of female subjugation and linked polygamy to female genital cutting and domestic violence. That view is echoed by most research on plural marriages, including studies of West African immigrants in France, where the government estimates that 120,000 people live in 20,000 polygamous families.

“The woman is in effect the slave of the man,” said a stylish Guinean businesswoman in her 40s who, like many women interviewed in Harlem and the Bronx, spoke on the condition of anonymity. “If you protest, your husband will hit you, and if you call the police, he’s going to divorce you, and the whole community will scorn you.”

“Even me,” she added. “My husband went to find another wife in Africa, and he has the right to do that. They tell you nothing, until one afternoon he says, ‘O.K., your co-wife arrives this evening.’ ”

Men, in contrast, tended to play down the existence of polygamy, if they were willing to discuss it at all.

Dr. Ousseiny Coulibaly, 36, a gynecologist, was born in Mali and educated in France, where polygamy has long been an explosive immigration and women’s rights issue. Yet he said he was unaware of any cases among his West African patients at Harlem Hospital Center.

“I’m not asking,” he said. “I’m not even suspecting it. There might be so many things I don’t know.”

Don’t-ask-don’t-know policies prevail in many agencies that deal with immigrant families in New York, perhaps because there is no framework for addressing polygamy in a city that prides itself on tolerance of religious, cultural and sexual differences — and on support for human rights and equality.

Last summer, when a nonprofit agency in the Bronx surveyed the needs of the sub-Saharan immigrants in its child care and literacy programs, questionnaires asked about interest in marriage counseling, but not about polygamy.

“This is a very private community,” said Rose Rivera, director of Head Start at the agency, the Women’s Housing and Employment Development Corporation, which largely relies on the fathers to translate for the mothers. “They’re not really ready to trust us.”

Yet on Monday, two Gambian women with children in the program acknowledged, when asked by a reporter, that polygamy was a given in their lives. Both described themselves as “first wives,” married at 16, who joined their husbands in New York in the 1990s, never having attended school.

One, now 36, with three children, said her husband was betrothed to a second wife in Gambia whom he would soon bring to the Bronx. Protest was pointless. “They won’t listen,” she said. “Whether you like it or not, they will marry.”

Islam is often cited as the authority that allows polygamy. But in Africa, the practice is a cultural tradition that crosses religious lines, while some Muslim lands elsewhere sharply restrict it. The Koran says a man should not take more than one wife if he cannot treat them all equally — a very high bar, many Muslims say.

Ms. Traoré, of the Malian women’s group, cited two prosperous households in Bergen County, in New Jersey, that seemed to pass the test.

“They get along very well,” she said of the wives in one home, who married their husband in Africa at the same time. “It’s extraordinary. When they come to our celebrations they dress the same, the same outfit, the same jewels. The husband is completely fair.”

Still, since only one wife could have entered the country as a spouse, the other is probably more vulnerable to deportation, she acknowledged.

More typical, many immigrants said, are cramped apartments in the Bronx with many children underfoot, clashes between jealous co-wives and domestic violence. And if the household breaks up, the wives’ legal status is murky at best, with little case law to guide decisions on marital property or benefits.

Men, too, can end up in polygamous marriages reluctantly, driven by the dictates of clan and culture. That seems to be the case for the husband of Ms. D., the Guinean restaurant worker. Efforts to reach him for this article failed, but as Ms. D. tells it, he insisted he was just as surprised as she was when his first wife, left behind in Ghana, showed up six years ago.

Their match, like many African marriages, had been made by their families before he left for New York. Years later, he met and courted Ms. D. in the Bronx, saying his relationship with his Ghanaian wife was over.

But a year after he married Ms. D. in Guinea and they returned to the Bronx, relatives arranged for a visa for his first wife to join them.

“In Africa, women accept things like that,” Ms. D. said. “Here, the apartments are too small.”

She recalled terrible fights during the three months they all lived together. The conflicts continued after she paid for the first wife to move to another apartment. For eight months, the husband shuttled between the two, but he became abusive, she said. And when Ms. D was five months pregnant, he stopped showing up.

Like many West African women, Ms. D. had been subjected to genital cutting as a child, making sex painful. The other wife had not been cut.

“It’s not life, your man sharing a bed with another woman,” Ms. D. said. “You’re always thinking in your head, ‘does he love me?’ ”

Such stories of polygamy, New York style, are typically shared by women only in whispered conversations in laundries and at hair-braiding salons. With no legal immigration status and no right to asylum from polygamy, many are afraid to expose their husbands to arrest or deportation, which could dishonor and impoverish their families here and in Africa.

But Aminata Kante, an immigrant from Ivory Coast who found help for herself and Ms. D. at Sanctuary for Families, an agency for battered women, uses her own story to urge rebellion.

Wed at 15 in Ivory Coast, over the telephone, to a New York City taxi driver thousands of miles away, Ms. Kante was delivered to her groom on a false passport. She said she endured his abuse for years, bore three children, turned over her paycheck from work as a health aide, and tried harder to appease him when he sent two of the children to Africa.

But something snapped, she said, when he announced that he had taken a teenage second wife, also married, just as she had been, over the phone — a valid wedding in Ivory Coast. Ms. Kante left him. Relatives pressed her to return. Uncles warned that she would be branded a bad woman, and that the stigma would follow her children in Africa. Without papers, vulnerable to deportation, she ended up in a homeless shelter.

But now, at 30, she tells the story in the warm glow of her own living room, her children restored to her, and a green card secured, through unusual legal efforts by lawyers at Sanctuary.

“I know a lady who lives with her husband and another woman in one room, a two-bedroom, with 11 kids,” she said. “I tell her, she has to move — it’s not a life.” And her own husband? His second wife is 23 now, with three children. And recently, Ms. Kante said, he married a third.